Ozzies09tc wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 9:01 am

Turk Sanderson wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 8:22 am

MattyIce wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 7:10 am

Maybe... but I highly doubt the Blues would purposefully botch a shoulder surgery on their best scorer. Medical issues are not always cut and dry. And when you invest millions in a player, I could see why a team would want to use and trust their own doctors versus a player's doctor.
It was definitely a strange situation though. I don't necessarily blame either side really. I see both perspectives.

It's really odd to see all of these players with other teams - DP, ROR, Tank, Schwartz... And as much as last year was painful missing the playoffs, I think it was the best think that could have happened for this franchise. They went from a pretty depleted farm system to being pretty stacked. They could have probably treaded water for a few more years, but I'm pumped for the future. 3 years from now this roster could be really stacked.

They botched his shoulder twice.., Brown and Crouppen probably rings his phone off the wall.

while I know this to be the narrative, I've never put time into looking into this.

I started googling things (using google chrome/google...maybe bing has different results?) but I can't find anything that shows how the surgery(ies) were "botched".
I understand he had to have the same surgery, 3 times, year after year, but the sport he plays in is VERY physical, the shoulder being a VERY used appendage and thus more susceptible to damage/abuse, but if a team is paying a player X million dollars a year, I understand the argument of "rushing them back" but on the flip side if I'm paying a player X million dollars a year I'd want them performing at what I'm paying them for.

TL;DR - were the surgeries really botched, was tarasenko rushed back after surgery, or is this a scape-goat for tank wanting out of stl bc he wasnt captain?

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 7:46 am

BluesSK wrote: Thu Jul 27, 2023 8:22 pm One year $5M.

Who could have imagined this a couple of seasons ago? Kinda feel bad for the guy.

It’s the way of this off-season with the flat cap. Everyone is signing 1 year deals and will hit the market again next year when it goes up by around 5 or so. Well, everyone but MacMac

BluesSK wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:01 pm I have a theory about how the career of Tarasenko got derailed and I don't know whether the blame belongs with him or management or a combination of both

When he joined the team he was a quick, dynamic player with a great shot and a bit of physicality. Passing was so-so but he had good puck handling skills and pretty good hockey sense. He had a tendency to have a few off games but he was never a liability and he did seem to come through at opportune moments.

Who can forget his statement making goal against the Rangers?

Somewhere along the line though someone decided he needed to become a power forward. He put on too much weight and muscle and definitely lost a step and some agility.

From then on he was strictly a north south player who could score. He should have been a Panarin type player but instead opted to mold himself after Ovechkin. The problem with that is he doesn't have or use the one-timer.

Once he became too big and lost nobility that's when the physical issues started. So I really don't know who is to blame for that but he really didn't fit into the Blues plans after the injuries happened and I think he took it personally. Hopefully he figures it out. He's still a great player and I will always like the guy.

One thing I do feel is that he wanted to be more of a leader on the team and for some reason the Blues never gave him that chance. I really regret that. he could have been a legend here.

Oates2Hullie450 wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 4:03 pm

BluesSK wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:01 pm I have a theory about how the career of Tarasenko got derailed and I don't know whether the blame belongs with him or management or a combination of both

When he joined the team he was a quick, dynamic player with a great shot and a bit of physicality. Passing was so-so but he had good puck handling skills and pretty good hockey sense. He had a tendency to have a few off games but he was never a liability and he did seem to come through at opportune moments.

Who can forget his statement making goal against the Rangers?

Somewhere along the line though someone decided he needed to become a power forward. He put on too much weight and muscle and definitely lost a step and some agility.

From then on he was strictly a north south player who could score. He should have been a Panarin type player but instead opted to mold himself after Ovechkin. The problem with that is he doesn't have or use the one-timer.

Once he became too big and lost nobility that's when the physical issues started. So I really don't know who is to blame for that but he really didn't fit into the Blues plans after the injuries happened and I think he took it personally. Hopefully he figures it out. He's still a great player and I will always like the guy.

One thing I do feel is that he wanted to be more of a leader on the team and for some reason the Blues never gave him that chance. I really regret that. he could have been a legend here.

I'll never be able to wrap my head around him not winning a Richard. I was so bought in on Vlad. I think you're spot on. If memory serves, he was still spoken of openly by team personnel in the media as the focal point of the offense even into the-uh "yeo era," and as that spotlight started to shift off of him as the production declined I think he resented the team for mishandling the shoulder. Then as you say, the physical breakdown could've been partially due to his weight/strength gain. He definitely didn't need it to get his shot off. Modern tech of course but I haven't seen a Blues player with a wrist/snapshot from distance like that, ever.

I agree something feels unfulfilled from his time here. We just don't have many top ten talents come through, and for several seasons in the mid-2010s once he hit stride he absolutely was that.

That version of Tarasenko could've hit 50 in today's NHL easily.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 5:33 pm

Oates2Hullie450 wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 4:03 pm

BluesSK wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:01 pm I have a theory about how the career of Tarasenko got derailed and I don't know whether the blame belongs with him or management or a combination of both

When he joined the team he was a quick, dynamic player with a great shot and a bit of physicality. Passing was so-so but he had good puck handling skills and pretty good hockey sense. He had a tendency to have a few off games but he was never a liability and he did seem to come through at opportune moments.

Who can forget his statement making goal against the Rangers?

Somewhere along the line though someone decided he needed to become a power forward. He put on too much weight and muscle and definitely lost a step and some agility.

From then on he was strictly a north south player who could score. He should have been a Panarin type player but instead opted to mold himself after Ovechkin. The problem with that is he doesn't have or use the one-timer.

Once he became too big and lost nobility that's when the physical issues started. So I really don't know who is to blame for that but he really didn't fit into the Blues plans after the injuries happened and I think he took it personally. Hopefully he figures it out. He's still a great player and I will always like the guy.

One thing I do feel is that he wanted to be more of a leader on the team and for some reason the Blues never gave him that chance. I really regret that. he could have been a legend here.

I'll never be able to wrap my head around him not winning a Richard. I was so bought in on Vlad. I think you're spot on. If memory serves, he was still spoken of openly by team personnel in the media as the focal point of the offense even into the-uh "yeo era," and as that spotlight started to shift off of him as the production declined I think he resented the team for mishandling the shoulder. Then as you say, the physical breakdown could've been partially due to his weight/strength gain. He definitely didn't need it to get his shot off. Modern tech of course but I haven't seen a Blues player with a wrist/snapshot from distance like that, ever.

I agree something feels unfulfilled from his time here. We just don't have many top ten talents come through, and for several seasons in the mid-2010s once he hit stride he absolutely was that.

That version of Tarasenko could've hit 50 in today's NHL easily.

The team never gave him a proper playmaking center during his prime years. He was forced to make Lehtera look like a serviceable center.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 5:33 pm

Oates2Hullie450 wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 4:03 pm

BluesSK wrote: Fri Jul 28, 2023 2:01 pm I have a theory about how the career of Tarasenko got derailed and I don't know whether the blame belongs with him or management or a combination of both

When he joined the team he was a quick, dynamic player with a great shot and a bit of physicality. Passing was so-so but he had good puck handling skills and pretty good hockey sense. He had a tendency to have a few off games but he was never a liability and he did seem to come through at opportune moments.

Who can forget his statement making goal against the Rangers?

Somewhere along the line though someone decided he needed to become a power forward. He put on too much weight and muscle and definitely lost a step and some agility.

From then on he was strictly a north south player who could score. He should have been a Panarin type player but instead opted to mold himself after Ovechkin. The problem with that is he doesn't have or use the one-timer.

Once he became too big and lost nobility that's when the physical issues started. So I really don't know who is to blame for that but he really didn't fit into the Blues plans after the injuries happened and I think he took it personally. Hopefully he figures it out. He's still a great player and I will always like the guy.

One thing I do feel is that he wanted to be more of a leader on the team and for some reason the Blues never gave him that chance. I really regret that. he could have been a legend here.

I'll never be able to wrap my head around him not winning a Richard. I was so bought in on Vlad. I think you're spot on. If memory serves, he was still spoken of openly by team personnel in the media as the focal point of the offense even into the-uh "yeo era," and as that spotlight started to shift off of him as the production declined I think he resented the team for mishandling the shoulder. Then as you say, the physical breakdown could've been partially due to his weight/strength gain. He definitely didn't need it to get his shot off. Modern tech of course but I haven't seen a Blues player with a wrist/snapshot from distance like that, ever.

I agree something feels unfulfilled from his time here. We just don't have many top ten talents come through, and for several seasons in the mid-2010s once he hit stride he absolutely was that.

That version of Tarasenko could've hit 50 in today's NHL easily.

The team never gave him a proper playmaking center during his prime years. He was forced to make Lehtera look like a serviceable center.

Ozzies09tc wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:18 pm Tarasenko is a highly skilled scorer, but was never going to win a Richard in the same time the greatest goal scorer ever is playing.

It's not fair to have tarasenko and ovechkin in the same conversation much like its not fair to have Connor McDavid and Ryan O'Reilly in the same convo

That's not to downplay tank or O'Reilly's skill at all!

But comparing GREAT players to GENERATIONAL players just doesn't work (for me atleast) in this scenario.

Tarasenko -sans shoulder issues, hitch hockey, beefcake mode enabled, would have some more g/a/p's but not significant enough to have changed...really anything except maybe $$$ for his current contract - but with lockout 3 under gary buttplug + pandemic... What team could've afforded him anyways?

BillP wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:22 pm

Ozzies09tc wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:18 pm Tarasenko is a highly skilled scorer, but was never going to win a Richard in the same time the greatest goal scorer ever is playing.

It's not fair to have tarasenko and ovechkin in the same conversation much like its not fair to have Connor McDavid and Ryan O'Reilly in the same convo

That's not to downplay tank or O'Reilly's skill at all!

But comparing GREAT players to GENERATIONAL players just doesn't work (for me atleast) in this scenario.

Tarasenko -sans shoulder issues, hitch hockey, beefcake mode enabled, would have some more g/a/p's but not significant enough to have changed...really anything except maybe $$$ for his current contract - but with lockout 3 under gary buttplug + pandemic... What team could've afforded him anyways?

He wasn’t a great PP guy, at least not good enough to help him reach 50 goal status. He never expanded his game either. I thought the year he had a couple years ago when he scored 34, was the best he ever was. Scored goals in a variety of ways that year. Being on the shelf, not getting picked up in expansion or trade woke his ass up.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:28 pm

BillP wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:22 pm

Ozzies09tc wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 12:18 pm Tarasenko is a highly skilled scorer, but was never going to win a Richard in the same time the greatest goal scorer ever is playing.

It's not fair to have tarasenko and ovechkin in the same conversation much like its not fair to have Connor McDavid and Ryan O'Reilly in the same convo

That's not to downplay tank or O'Reilly's skill at all!

But comparing GREAT players to GENERATIONAL players just doesn't work (for me atleast) in this scenario.

Tarasenko -sans shoulder issues, hitch hockey, beefcake mode enabled, would have some more g/a/p's but not significant enough to have changed...really anything except maybe $$$ for his current contract - but with lockout 3 under gary buttplug + pandemic... What team could've afforded him anyways?

He wasn’t a great PP guy, at least not good enough to help him reach 50 goal status. He never expanded his game either. I thought the year he had a couple years ago when he scored 34, was the best he ever was. Scored goals in a variety of ways that year. Being on the shelf, not getting picked up in expansion or trade woke his ass up.

It was also the exact moment when Army SHOULD have traded him. Not moving him last offseason with all time trade value and one year left on his contract and a player that had expressed a desire to leave multiple times for multiple years was a big misstep. I get why he didn't, but he should have. I don't think it would've gotten us into the Tkachuk sweepstakes, but maybe.

BluesSK wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:53 pm

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:28 pm

BillP wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:22 pm

He wasn’t a great PP guy, at least not good enough to help him reach 50 goal status. He never expanded his game either. I thought the year he had a couple years ago when he scored 34, was the best he ever was. Scored goals in a variety of ways that year. Being on the shelf, not getting picked up in expansion or trade woke his ass up.

It was also the exact moment when Army SHOULD have traded him. Not moving him last offseason with all time trade value and one year left on his contract and a player that had expressed a desire to leave multiple times for multiple years was a big misstep. I get why he didn't, but he should have. I don't think it would've gotten us into the Tkachuk sweepstakes, but maybe.

I honestly think he did it to piss Vlad off. I can't think of any other logical reason why he didn't based on the reasons you raised.

Oates2Hullie450 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:31 pm

BluesSK wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:53 pm

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:28 pm

It was also the exact moment when Army SHOULD have traded him. Not moving him last offseason with all time trade value and one year left on his contract and a player that had expressed a desire to leave multiple times for multiple years was a big misstep. I get why he didn't, but he should have. I don't think it would've gotten us into the Tkachuk sweepstakes, but maybe.

I honestly think he did it to piss Vlad off. I can't think of any other logical reason why he didn't based on the reasons you raised.

Believing the Cup window was still open after the second round loss I'd assume. Or what he could get on the market wasn't cutting it. I'd be willing to bet there was a "you'll honor your contract and suck it up" conversation mixed in, but I can't remember Armstrong ever making a decision seemingly out of spite.

BluesSK wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:50 pm

Oates2Hullie450 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:31 pm

BluesSK wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 1:53 pm

I honestly think he did it to piss Vlad off. I can't think of any other logical reason why he didn't based on the reasons you raised.

Believing the Cup window was still open after the second round loss I'd assume. Or what he could get on the market wasn't cutting it. I'd be willing to bet there was a "you'll honor your contract and suck it up" conversation mixed in, but I can't remember Armstrong ever making a decision seemingly out of spite.

Vlad did go very public with it. Maybe Armstrong didn't like it. He did end up getting a pretty good return as it turned out and still fucked him over.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:52 am

BluesSK wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:50 pm

Oates2Hullie450 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:31 pm
Believing the Cup window was still open after the second round loss I'd assume. Or what he could get on the market wasn't cutting it. I'd be willing to bet there was a "you'll honor your contract and suck it up" conversation mixed in, but I can't remember Armstrong ever making a decision seemingly out of spite.

Vlad did go very public with it. Maybe Armstrong didn't like it. He did end up getting a pretty good return as it turned out and still fucked him over.

I'd hope Army isn't making decisions with franchise players based out of spite.

BluesSK wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:02 am

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:52 am

BluesSK wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:50 pm

Vlad did go very public with it. Maybe Armstrong didn't like it. He did end up getting a pretty good return as it turned out and still fucked him over.

I'd hope Army isn't making decisions with franchise players based out of spite.

You'd think that but egos and personalities are a big part of sports.

It worked out for Armstrong.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:52 am

BluesSK wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 5:50 pm

Oates2Hullie450 wrote: Sat Jul 29, 2023 3:31 pm
Believing the Cup window was still open after the second round loss I'd assume. Or what he could get on the market wasn't cutting it. I'd be willing to bet there was a "you'll honor your contract and suck it up" conversation mixed in, but I can't remember Armstrong ever making a decision seemingly out of spite.

Vlad did go very public with it. Maybe Armstrong didn't like it. He did end up getting a pretty good return as it turned out and still fucked him over.

I'd hope Army isn't making decisions with franchise players based out of spite.

Turk Sanderson wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:29 pm

BluesSK wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:02 am

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:52 am

I'd hope Army isn't making decisions with franchise players based out of spite.

You'd think that but egos and personalities are a big part of sports.

It worked out for Armstrong.

It's not a game, it's a business. Army will always look at things from that perspective, and do what's best for the Blues first...that's what makes him among the best in the "business".
.

Ozzies09tc wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 6:06 pm

Turk Sanderson wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 12:29 pm

BluesSK wrote: Sun Jul 30, 2023 10:02 am

You'd think that but egos and personalities are a big part of sports.

It worked out for Armstrong.

It's not a game, it's a business. Army will always look at things from that perspective, and do what's best for the Blues first...that's what makes him among the best in the "business".
.

Do what's best for the blues first

That's an interesting take on signing yeo, letting pie walk, and crippling our defense with terrible unmovable contracts for the next four years, hiring mactavish...

Not saying he did anything to tank out of spite, but he isn't a god send. He has flaws too.

T.C. wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:56 am I honestly think that Vlad was kept here longer than he should have been because the front office felt like he put butts in seats, and they didn’t have anyone else who would. They built marketing campaigns around him for years and made him the face of the franchise. I know this is ridiculous, but I could never find any “hockey” reason to do so.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:51 am

T.C. wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:56 am I honestly think that Vlad was kept here longer than he should have been because the front office felt like he put butts in seats, and they didn’t have anyone else who would. They built marketing campaigns around him for years and made him the face of the franchise. I know this is ridiculous, but I could never find any “hockey” reason to do so.

My assumption was the Blues set a specific value on him and no team was willing to meet it and the Blues weren't interested in compromising for the players interest. The fact they got a 1st for him to be a couple month rental though lets me know he had value around the league so it's not like the Blues were being offered a 3rd for him and decided to not trade him.

Questions we will only be able to speculate at the answers, but I'd sure love to know what if any trade talks occurred last offseason. I need to figure out how to hack Army's phone.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 8:51 am

T.C. wrote: Mon Jul 31, 2023 4:56 am I honestly think that Vlad was kept here longer than he should have been because the front office felt like he put butts in seats, and they didn’t have anyone else who would. They built marketing campaigns around him for years and made him the face of the franchise. I know this is ridiculous, but I could never find any “hockey” reason to do so.

My assumption was the Blues set a specific value on him and no team was willing to meet it and the Blues weren't interested in compromising for the players interest. The fact they got a 1st for him to be a couple month rental though lets me know he had value around the league so it's not like the Blues were being offered a 3rd for him and decided to not trade him.

Questions we will only be able to speculate at the answers, but I'd sure love to know what if any trade talks occurred last offseason. I need to figure out how to hack Army's phone.