Well Brad,I gotta say while your condescension is biblical in proportion, this isn't the asylum. And yeah one more skid like we had a week or two ago and we could be out of playoff contention. Look at the standings,Chicago nuff said,Minny 4 pts back 3 games in hand,Preds 6 pts back 1 game in hand, and last but not least Colorado who has been playing lights out. Watch any other game and watch the cross-checking that goes on in front of the net, so just how do you think opposing forwards end up on their hands and knees between the dots? And as far as tougher D-men in the league I guess I would ask you to point out a few softer, THAT list is way shorter.

CaptSMRT wrote:http://thehockeypress.ca/posts/9213161/

Petro for Malkin would be huge.

Things are just going from bad to worse in Pittsburgh. Rutherford was an atrocious hire for the Penguins. The guy was basically run out of Carolina and had retired and Pittsburgh with no plan fired Shero and hired Rutherford for God knows why. Instead of getting a good coaching hire right away Rutherford waffled and let Bylsma twist in the wind until all the good coaching prospects were gone.

Their initial coaching hire couldn't do anything with the players he had so they got rid of him. The new coach is already at odds with some of the players.

Pittsburgh has to do something drastic.

BlueinNy wrote:Well Brad,I gotta say while your condescension is biblical in proportion, this isn't the asylum. And yeah one more skid like we had a week or two ago and we could be out of playoff contention. Look at the standings,Chicago nuff said,Minny 4 pts back 3 games in hand,Preds 6 pts back 1 game in hand, and last but not least Colorado who has been playing lights out. Watch any other game and watch the cross-checking that goes on in front of the net, so just how do you think opposing forwards end up on their hands and knees between the dots? And as far as tougher D-men in the league I guess I would ask you to point out a few softer, THAT list is way shorter.

LOL, I just get a kick out of fans who think the sky is falling when we are sitting in 2nd place and we really don't have any holes on our team. As I said before, I get that it's fun to talk trades and discuss options, but the 'passion' by some fans here and even worse on the asylum, is amusing, at least to me.

#1 - I have ZERO control over the play of the Blues, what players are on the team, and/or any other management decisions. However, when I see silliness posted, I enjoy responding in hopes that some sanity can sail in between the ridiculousness.

#2 - Our D is not an issue, but yet you seem to have an issue with Petro as you whipping boy when he is as RAF has pointed out in 'elite' status, just based on his stats if you are too blind to like his play.

#3 We have Schwartz coming back from injury within the next few weeks, so that will provide some additional scoring.

The only players I've been disappointed in are Jaskin and Lehtera, but they have been playing the right way, so I believe they'll come around soon and get more scoring.

Your pergative how you wish to either like or dislike the team and it's performance. Free country. But expect criticism when posting what I consider silliness, and I'm sure you will do the same. Oh, and BTW, since I enjoy watching games on Gamecenter, I see plenty of other teams. The era of 'crease clearing d-men has passed by' IMHO. Especially for the Blues, as that's not our game; we are a reckless, fast, heavy, and transition team....at least when we play how Hitch wants us to

Peace.

I agree the issue isn't our D, as I've opined before it's the lack of finishers as it were. One injury to Vladimir and imho this team misses the big dance. And yes Schwartz will help, after he gets ten or so real games under his belt which should probably put him somewhere in mid February till he's himself. I just think that if your in the game for a Malkin,Stamkos,or Johansson Gunnar ain't getting it done even as good as he's been playing lately. If a trade partner is going to give up an elite forward, they'll expect something equal in return, my GUESS Petro would be the guy.

BlueinNy wrote:I agree the issue isn't our D, as I've opined before it's the lack of finishers as it were. One injury to Vladimir and imho this team misses the big dance. And yes Schwartz will help, after he gets ten or so real games under his belt which should probably put him somewhere in mid February till he's himself. I just think that if your in the game for a Malkin,Stamkos,or Johansson Gunnar ain't getting it done even as good as he's been playing lately. If a trade partner is going to give up an elite forward, they'll expect something equal in return, my GUESS Petro would be the guy.

Oh, I absolutely agree that to bring in a top 10 forward it is going to cost us at least a Petro. My concern is that while a player of a Malkin/Stamkos caliber would be an obvious upgrade on offense, we would then have a large hole on D. I am just not ready to throw Shatty or Parayko into the #1 RHD spot.

We all saw how well it did not work out to make an upgrade by going after an 'elite' goalie in Miller. While Stastny may not be 'elite' (like Halak), would a Malkin/Stamkos be just a 5% - 10% upgrade that will then cost us on the d-side even more, along with potential future picks/prospects, as the trade for Miller did?

Alls I know is that when looking at the teams which make it to the Cup final over the last several years in the 'Cap Era', I cannot think of any who traded away and for a #1 D or #1 Forward that same season. Most teams that make it deep go into the season strong, and if anything add supplemental scoring and/or defensive depth.

bradleygt89 wrote:

BlueinNy wrote:I agree the issue isn't our D, as I've opined before it's the lack of finishers as it were. One injury to Vladimir and imho this team misses the big dance. And yes Schwartz will help, after he gets ten or so real games under his belt which should probably put him somewhere in mid February till he's himself. I just think that if your in the game for a Malkin,Stamkos,or Johansson Gunnar ain't getting it done even as good as he's been playing lately. If a trade partner is going to give up an elite forward, they'll expect something equal in return, my GUESS Petro would be the guy.

Oh, I absolutely agree that to bring in a top 10 forward it is going to cost us at least a Petro. My concern is that while a player of a Malkin/Stamkos caliber would be an obvious upgrade on offense, we would then have a large hole on D. I am just not ready to throw Shatty or Parayko into the #1 RHD spot.

We all saw how well it did not work out to make an upgrade by going after an 'elite' goalie in Miller. While Stastny may not be 'elite' (like Halak), would a Malkin/Stamkos be just a 5% - 10% upgrade that will then cost us on the d-side even more, along with potential future picks/prospects, as the trade for Miller did?

Alls I know is that when looking at the teams which make it to the Cup final over the last several years in the 'Cap Era', I cannot think of any who traded away and for a #1 D or #1 Forward that same season. Most teams that make it deep go into the season strong, and if anything add supplemental scoring and/or defensive depth.

Brad...I still don't think that this bunch, that is never ready to start playing until the game is half over, are contenders this year...unless something earth shattering happens. Hope I'm wrong, but they can't continue playing rope-a-dope and catch-up and expect to make a run...I just don't see it.

Turk; not to be argumentative... But, IF we are not going to be contenders, then why even consider to make a big trade like this? I just don't see a Stamkos/Malkin signing in STL for long-term, so unless we are 'going for it all' this season, a short-term rental makes zero sense, IMHO.

Which is why I think adding supplemental scoring piece who could slide into the 3rd line and be good enough for 2nd line if injury hits again. Someone who can do what we hoped Jaskin would do this season, would be best, IMHO.

bradleygt89 wrote:Turk; not to be argumentative... But, IF we are not going to be contenders, then why even consider to make a big trade like this? I just don't see a Stamkos/Malkin signing in STL for long-term, so unless we are 'going for it all' this season, a short-term rental makes zero sense, IMHO.

Which is why I think adding supplemental scoring piece who could slide into the 3rd line and be good enough for 2nd line if injury hits again. Someone who can do what we hoped Jaskin would do this season, would be best, IMHO.

I don't advocate renting anyone, but a sign and trade for a high level talent would give the Blues a better shot next year when Hitch is gone and other kids make their way up the pipeline.

Let me put it like this;

IF, and I have zero confidence that this proposal would warrant anything less than laughter by another GM, we could make a trade for an elite forward that didn't cost us any of the following: Tarasenko, Schwartz, Steen, Fabri, Petro, Shatty, Parayko, Dunn, Allen, or a 1st round pick, then I'd say yes.

Problem is that to get an elite forward, it's going to cost us, and my point is that the ROI would be negative short and long term to the team.

After watching the last few melt downs, post season, I think we've tried the shut down D and it was a mess. I'm not sure what the win percentage is for a team that scores first in the playoffs(I'm sure it's very good) but I sure would like to see how it feels to have a lead. And that's not very likely, or should I say it's more likely to happen with another top flight scoring threat. It would take pressure off Tarasenko,Steen, and Schwartz. PS I truly miss big Als slapper, thing of beauty.

bradleygt89 wrote:Let me put it like this;

IF, and I have zero confidence that this proposal would warrant anything less than laughter by another GM, we could make a trade for an elite forward that didn't cost us any of the following: Tarasenko, Schwartz, Steen, Fabri, Petro, Shatty, Parayko, Dunn, Allen, or a 1st round pick, then I'd say yes.

Problem is that to get an elite forward, it's going to cost us, and my point is that the ROI would be negative short and long term to the team.

If you are trading for a high priced player, then Jaybo or Petro will be going the other way because of salary.

For the record I don't think there's much of a chance at all that Stamkos or Malkin are traded to the Blues, but these conversations are fun. I think that in a hypothetical Stamkos deal, the only lock player to be included is Backes. Reason being he is also a pending UFA Center that makes a fair amount of scratch. Obviously there'd need to be more to it, but I think that's the starting point. Regarding the "sign and trade" tactic, I thought that was only an NBA thing. In the NHL aren't you forbidden from talking about contract terms while a player is with another team? This thread is about Petro though, and I haven't mentioned him yet, and that's because I think he's sticking around St. Louis for the long haul.

Dave's a mess wrote:For the record I don't think there's much of a chance at all that Stamkos or Malkin are traded to the Blues, but these conversations are fun. I think that in a hypothetical Stamkos deal, the only lock player to be included is Backes. Reason being he is also a pending UFA Center that makes a fair amount of scratch. Obviously there'd need to be more to it, but I think that's the starting point. Regarding the "sign and trade" tactic, I thought that was only an NBA thing. In the NHL aren't you forbidden from talking about contract terms while a player is with another team? This thread is about Petro though, and I haven't mentioned him yet, and that's because I think he's sticking around St. Louis for the long haul.

I'm sure a sign and trade (in effect) could be worked out if Stamkos wanted to be here long term....as for Petro, there's only a few players that I wouldn't move, and he ain't one of them.

Everybody on the same page now? Hate to beat a dead horse, Fuck we need SCORERS not minute eaters.

BlueinNy wrote:Everybody on the same page now? Hate to beat a dead horse, Fuck we need SCORERS not minute eaters.

I don't disagree we need some more scoring but be careful what you wish for... Teams also don't win in the playoffs without a legitimate number one defenseman.

It was mentioned in this thread also that Tampa and the Blues had been scouting one another. I did not and still don't buy the Stamkos rumors that surfaced at that time. However, Drouin requested a trade in November according to his agent. I am guessing that was what the scouting was about. I imagine that Steve is asking a pretty steep price for him though.

My only problem with that post is IMHO Petro isn't our #1, Gunnarson Parayko and Shatty are are all playing better than Petro.

The problem with trading away players at this juncture, is that the next coach might want those same guys that you're dealing away. This team has lost it's sense of direction, and looks totally clueless. I think it's over 130 minutes since they have
scored an even strength goal. For all the puck moving d-men that they have built upon, that's pathetic. Trading away players at this point is useless unless you're throwing in the towel. Change the coaching staff, and let the new guys sort it out.

Turk Sanderson wrote:The problem with trading away players at this juncture, is that the next coach might want those same guys that you're dealing away. This team has lost it's sense of direction, and looks totally clueless. I think it's over 130 minutes since they have
scored an even strength goal. For all the puck moving d-men that they have built upon, that's pathetic. Trading away players at this point is useless unless you're throwing in the towel. Change the coaching staff, and let the new guys sort it out.

I still think we need to ride this one out with who we have, players, coaches, and GM. IF the end result is the same or worse, then make drastic changes. We could use a small shakeup for additional scoring, but trading Petro or more scoring won't solve the issue if the issue is Hitch's system. Ride it out, and then make the decisions with Backes, Brouwer, Hitch, Army and company.

I'd like to sit down with Steen(next year's C) and get his take on Hitchcocks "system", after watching the last few games imho Hitchcock has lost the room.

BlueinNy wrote:My only problem with that post is IMHO Petro isn't our #1, Gunnarson Parayko and Shatty are are all playing better than Petro.

Exactly. 27 is overexposed. For all the talk about how many minutes he eats up, I think that is exactly the problem. He needs a few less minutes. And I know I am going to get several posts about how everyone else on D will get burned and look stupid, etc. But guess what, you don't have anything to base that off. Get Pie off the ice a little more and let's see what happens.

RAFritchey wrote:From his first full season (2010-2011) through today, do you know where Petro ranks overall among ALL defensemen?

Points: #5
Blocked shots: #6
Takeaways: #6
Shots: #7
Shot Attempts: #10
+/- (IMHO kind of dubious for comparisons, but anyway): #13

He plays top-pairing minutes against the other team's top scoring line, as well as PP and PK, and has been one of the top 5 best scoring defensemen in the league. You're just not going to GET much better than him, outside of a handful of guys.

If that's not "elite" I don't know what is. If that's "peaked" I'll take it! But he's only 25, and I think he still has more improvement ahead of him. And he's locked in at a VERY reasonable $6.5-7.5 mil a year for 4 years beyond this one. (look at players like Shea Webber making $14 mil this year, and $12 mil/year for the next two, P.K. Subban slated to make $11 mil/year or Brent Seabrook and Ryan Suter both going to be making $9 mil/year)

Neither Parayko nor Shattenkirk are ready to step in to replace that.

I'm definitely a Petro "basher", have been for a few years now, and the bashing has been getting louder and louder. The same problems he developed in his 3rd season, he still hasn't fixed. He's elite at transitioning the puck out of our zone (when he isn't pressured by more than one guy, b/c his fancy moves don't work when he's going against 2 guys, and he never just makes the safe chip off the boards), he still refuses to take a shot on net, even when there's a clear lane and we have 1 or 2 guys screening and waiting for deflections/rebounds. He'll just stutter step, stutter step, wait for 2 defenders to block the lane then hurry a pass to the half wall that more times than not handcuffs his partner or the winger. It's unbelievable to see how average he's become in almost all facets of the game - but that's not really why I quoted this specific post - what I wanted to address was the ranks for each of those stats.

All of those except points I would argue are driven more by "quantity of ice time" as opposed to "quality of play". Blocked Shots, Shots, Attempted Shots, and takeaways you obviously have a higher chance of gaining those stats with higher ice time. I'd be interested to see where you got those stats, so I could also see his giveaway ranking (I'm assuming, with the same logic, that it's also high b/c of his ice time) and so I could also see those stat rankings when shown as a per 60 min rate - that at least creates more of a "quality" factor instead of all counting stats being higher because of more opportunity to collect those stats. I don't have the time to do his whole career vs all other D men, but last year, Pie was 35th in Points/60 min by a defenseman with 1.34 (http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats ... ders/2014/) - funnily enough tied with David Runblad; Kevin Shattenkirk was actually first with 2.09 by comparison. That's also telling when he was 14th in scoring by defensemen with 46 points. To me that tells me it's more driven by time on ice. I know there is a little bump down b/c of the PK TOI Petro logs, but there are at least a dozen defensemen ahead of petro that play on their teams top PK unit. I know PP time plays a lot in this as well, it's definitely not perfect, but it helps make the points argument relative to time on ice, so in Hitch terms, it's a more "honest stat" It also tries to show more quality of play vs quantity of opportunity.

Furthermore, when is the last time you saw Petro get a primary assist on a goal? Or how many of those assists actually come from a play within the offensive zone, not a secondary assist on a breakout pass? I'm not sure if any site keeps primary vs secondary assist stats, but I can't imagine more than 30% of Petro's assists are primary. I know an assist is an assist, but just taking total points and not looking at it any more in depth(like points/60min), can be a bit deceiving. Once we get past the red line, he is an absolute liability and becomes an offensive black hole - there's not a stat to tell me that, but it's something if you're honest with yourself, it's hard not to notice. I actually believe that Petro has played a big part in diluting Jay Bo's offensive skills as well. Pie just has no instincts in the offensive zone. That's all I'll say about it, as I've gone on far too long, haha. Needless to say, I've been on the trade Petro for an offensive upgrade wagon for a while......

JMHO, but I think that the defense is so involved with trying to make plays, that they are cluttering up the offensive zone, and forcing the forwards to cover the points. Steen in particular is constantly covering the left point and the puck jumps over his stick instead of being held in. I don't like him covering the point for a d-man...I want him down and dirty.I like one puck mover paired with a stay-at-home guy...the Blues are giving up far too many odd-man rushes and breakaways because the defense is trying to do too much.

TR-USA wrote:Count me in on the no side for numerous reasons. First, there are not many players in the world that can do what petro does and statistics prove that. His transition and positional play are world class and far superior to any defenseman the blues currently have and to superior to most defenseman in the NHL. He plays huge minutes both in amount and importance. He matches up against top lines every night, kills penalties and plays on the power play. In my opinion he is extremely underrated by many Blues fans. At the current time there is no other defenseman on the Blues who could come close to filling the hole that would be created by trading him. I love Shatty but he is not on the same level as petro. Shatty's positional play is not close to petro's. He transitions well but still not at the level of petro. He is great on the power play and the offensive zone. However, defensively he again is nowhere near petro. Shatty would be exposed if he was forced to assume petro's role and I don't think it would be pretty. Shatty is also injury prone and if you trade petro and Shatty goes down for an extended period you have a rookie as your number one defenseman which I think we all know how that would likely turnout. I try everything to keep both but if we can't I move Shatty. I understand the idea the petro would get use a greater return but the hole created would be huge. Also teams rarely trade true number one centers. There are only a handful of centers in the league I would consider trading petro for and I doubt any of them are available. If RNH was the center piece of a deal involving petro i would be extremely disappointed with that return.

I agree with this. I haven't read much of the 2nd and 3rd page of this thread but I'm working on it. I just wanted to say count me in with the group that feels trading Petro is a mistake unless the return is ridiculous. He is undervalued on B.T. and starting to trend downwards here as well. He does so many things that don't show up on the score sheet. If you keep an eye on him all game and notice all the little things he does night in and night out against the best in the league. If we trade anyone on D I hope it isn't Petro. Go Blues!

rudy4u51 wrote:

TR-USA wrote:Count me in on the no side for numerous reasons. First, there are not many players in the world that can do what petro does and statistics prove that. His transition and positional play are world class and far superior to any defenseman the blues currently have and to superior to most defenseman in the NHL. He plays huge minutes both in amount and importance. He matches up against top lines every night, kills penalties and plays on the power play. In my opinion he is extremely underrated by many Blues fans. At the current time there is no other defenseman on the Blues who could come close to filling the hole that would be created by trading him. I love Shatty but he is not on the same level as petro. Shatty's positional play is not close to petro's. He transitions well but still not at the level of petro. He is great on the power play and the offensive zone. However, defensively he again is nowhere near petro. Shatty would be exposed if he was forced to assume petro's role and I don't think it would be pretty. Shatty is also injury prone and if you trade petro and Shatty goes down for an extended period you have a rookie as your number one defenseman which I think we all know how that would likely turnout. I try everything to keep both but if we can't I move Shatty. I understand the idea the petro would get use a greater return but the hole created would be huge. Also teams rarely trade true number one centers. There are only a handful of centers in the league I would consider trading petro for and I doubt any of them are available. If RNH was the center piece of a deal involving petro i would be extremely disappointed with that return.

I agree with this. I haven't read much of the 2nd and 3rd page of this thread but I'm working on it. I just wanted to say count me in with the group that feels trading Petro is a mistake unless the return is ridiculous. He is undervalued on B.T. and starting to trend downwards here as well. He does so many things that don't show up on the score sheet. If you keep an eye on him all game and notice all the little things he does night in and night out against the best in the league. If we trade anyone on D I hope it isn't Petro. Go Blues!

It's funny how that works, b/c I often watch Petro for entire periods and get the exact opposite feeling, thinking how ordinary he looks in so many facets of the game - that's why sports are so great! 2 people watching the exact same thing and coming up with different assessments. I guess that's how Mike Milbury became a GM as well - I'm sure a lot of people didn't agree with him either. Who knows if I'm Milbury or whoever the hopeless president of Hockey Ops was for the Islanders........