Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:53 pm Steen has no skill is what I was observing with him.. You will not see him walk a guy.. I guess I just don’t like his play.. He’s too short and not skilled enough.. Other than having a good slap shot, I’m not sure what he really did for the Blues..
Heard Bobo and Sanford got into a fight in practice today.. Team is falling apart

Falling apart? I would say it's finally showing signs of coming together. Remember when scraps were a routine part of training camp?

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:53 pm Steen has no skill is what I was observing with him.. You will not see him walk a guy.. I guess I just don’t like his play.. He’s too short and not skilled enough.. Other than having a good slap shot, I’m not sure what he really did for the Blues..
Heard Bobo and Sanford got into a fight in practice today.. Team is falling apart

I don't want to come off as Steenfan #1 or anything, but he was a huge part of the team's success during it's peak. He was a first line winger, and on PP1 and PK1 when those units were fantastic. He was a possession monster and in the top 3 in team scoring with the exception of 2 years in which injuries held him off during the team's perennial 100 point season run. He was the guy that gutted through a broken foot in the playoffs. If he's a problem in the locker room today, that is what it is, but over the course of his Blues career he was incredibly important.

Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:14 pm

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:53 pm Steen has no skill is what I was observing with him.. You will not see him walk a guy.. I guess I just don’t like his play.. He’s too short and not skilled enough.. Other than having a good slap shot, I’m not sure what he really did for the Blues..
Heard Bobo and Sanford got into a fight in practice today.. Team is falling apart

I don't want to come off as Steenfan #1 or anything, but he was a huge part of the team's success during it's peak. He was a first line winger, and on PP1 and PK1 when those units were fantastic. He was a possession monster and in the top 3 in team scoring with the exception of 2 years in which injuries held him off during the team's perennial 100 point season run. He was the guy that gutted through a broken foot in the playoffs. If he's a problem in the locker room today, that is what it is, but over the course of his Blues career he was incredibly important.

I have to agree. There was a stretch of time when he was the best all around forward
We had.

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:28 pm

Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:14 pm

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:53 pm Steen has no skill is what I was observing with him.. You will not see him walk a guy.. I guess I just don’t like his play.. He’s too short and not skilled enough.. Other than having a good slap shot, I’m not sure what he really did for the Blues..
Heard Bobo and Sanford got into a fight in practice today.. Team is falling apart

I don't want to come off as Steenfan #1 or anything, but he was a huge part of the team's success during it's peak. He was a first line winger, and on PP1 and PK1 when those units were fantastic. He was a possession monster and in the top 3 in team scoring with the exception of 2 years in which injuries held him off during the team's perennial 100 point season run. He was the guy that gutted through a broken foot in the playoffs. If he's a problem in the locker room today, that is what it is, but over the course of his Blues career he was incredibly important.

I have to agree. There was a stretch of time when he was the best all around forward
We had.

6 years ago, I would possibly agree with you.. And training camp fights are good not 1/4 of the season in..

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:31 pm

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:28 pm

Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:14 pm

I don't want to come off as Steenfan #1 or anything, but he was a huge part of the team's success during it's peak. He was a first line winger, and on PP1 and PK1 when those units were fantastic. He was a possession monster and in the top 3 in team scoring with the exception of 2 years in which injuries held him off during the team's perennial 100 point season run. He was the guy that gutted through a broken foot in the playoffs. If he's a problem in the locker room today, that is what it is, but over the course of his Blues career he was incredibly important.

I have to agree. There was a stretch of time when he was the best all around forward
We had.

6 years ago, I would possibly agree with you.. And training camp fights are good not 1/4 of the season in..

On the other hand, this is not your normal season. Personally, I am encouraged to see somebody give a shit enough to drop the gloves and go at it. This team needs to feel something....anything! Better they fight every practice, then to just lie down and act like a bunch of two dollar whores for every team in the league.

Steen can go for a bag of dicks for all I care. I don't care what we get back for him. 10 years here...10 freaking years.

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:58 pm

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:31 pm

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:28 pm

I have to agree. There was a stretch of time when he was the best all around forward
We had.

6 years ago, I would possibly agree with you.. And training camp fights are good not 1/4 of the season in..

On the other hand, this is not your normal season. Personally, I am encouraged to see somebody give a shit enough to drop the gloves and go at it. This team needs to feel something....anything! Better they fight every practice, then to just lie down and act like a bunch of two dollar whores for every team in the league.

I see your point, but don't fight a prospect of the Blues future.. Bobo could of killed the kid.. Fight another team, not your own..

Imo, Sanford is just a placeholder until we geta real prospect. And if I recall the description correctly, I think Sanford threw the first punch.
But I'm for anything that shows they have a pulse.

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:31 pm

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:28 pm

Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:14 pm

I don't want to come off as Steenfan #1 or anything, but he was a huge part of the team's success during it's peak. He was a first line winger, and on PP1 and PK1 when those units were fantastic. He was a possession monster and in the top 3 in team scoring with the exception of 2 years in which injuries held him off during the team's perennial 100 point season run. He was the guy that gutted through a broken foot in the playoffs. If he's a problem in the locker room today, that is what it is, but over the course of his Blues career he was incredibly important.

I have to agree. There was a stretch of time when he was the best all around forward
We had.

6 years ago, I would possibly agree with you.. And training camp fights are good not 1/4 of the season in..

Yeah, just to be clear, Steen now isn't Steen of old, so ship him out if you can. As Tim put so eloquently, "Steen can eat a bag of dicks for all I care." I just meant to imply that he WAS very important to this team and had made a positive impact in the past. I am absolutely ok with shipping out anyone close to the core of this team right now.

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:38 pm Imo, Sanford is just a placeholder until we geta real prospect. And if I recall the description correctly, I think Sanford threw the first punch.
But I'm for anything that shows they have a pulse.

Sanford 23 career PIM, 3 years- Bortuzzo 310 career PIM, 8 years... Bortuzzo has played an extra 5 years, but why would Sanford punch the only fighter on the Blues right now... That would of been like Turgeon trying to fight Pronger.. Placeholder or not, he's only 2pts off Steen...

I don't know, people get mad, they do dumb things. Maybe he didn't. I was going off memory of what I read. I see Sanford as a tweener. Has obvious talents, but I just don't see him as being a starter if this team makes the necessary adjustments. Then again, I've been wrong before, and will undoubtedly be again. Lol

Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:31 pm

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:28 pm

I have to agree. There was a stretch of time when he was the best all around forward
We had.

6 years ago, I would possibly agree with you.. And training camp fights are good not 1/4 of the season in..

Yeah, just to be clear, Steen now isn't Steen of old, so ship him out if you can. As Tim put so eloquently, "Steen can eat a bag of dicks for all I care." I just meant to imply that he WAS very important to this team and had made a positive impact in the past. I am absolutely ok with shipping out anyone close to the core of this team right now.

I agree with that. To me, I want to see ROR, Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, Edmunson, Bortz, Parayko, and Barbashev stay. I would hope Army explores trading Petro and Tarasenko, because they could bring back the kind of talent that would make this team better for now, and the future. If Binnington plays well, I suppose he would have to stay also. Bortz and Barbashev stay because they wouldn't bring backa lot in value, and because they play the kind of energized game that we need to play.

I just don't get why, when they interview someone, the Blues players, coaches keep saying this is a "fragile" group??? Are they referring to the captain not keeping the team together, because that's what I'm getting out of it...

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:43 pm I just don't get why, when they interview someone, the Blues players, coaches keep saying this is a "fragile" group??? Are they referring to the captain not keeping the team together, because that's what I'm getting out of it...

I see the lack of leadership from Petro as a very large factor. Berube has also called out "the leadership group," whom we can assume are the veterans..
Failure will destroy any group unless there are some strong minded leaders to make believers of the weaker individuals. Petro may be fine at helping new players find lodging, keeping track of birthdays, etc, but I don't see him inspiring anyone.

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:36 pm

Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Southsidetony wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 1:31 pm

6 years ago, I would possibly agree with you.. And training camp fights are good not 1/4 of the season in..

Yeah, just to be clear, Steen now isn't Steen of old, so ship him out if you can. As Tim put so eloquently, "Steen can eat a bag of dicks for all I care." I just meant to imply that he WAS very important to this team and had made a positive impact in the past. I am absolutely ok with shipping out anyone close to the core of this team right now.

I agree with that. To me, I want to see ROR, Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, Edmunson, Bortz, Parayko, and Barbashev stay. I would hope Army explores trading Petro and Tarasenko, because they could bring back the kind of talent that would make this team better for now, and the future. If Binnington plays well, I suppose he would have to stay also. Bortz and Barbashev stay because they wouldn't bring backa lot in value, and because they play the kind of energized game that we need to play.

If you trade Petro and/or Tarasenko, unless they're part of a package, you're not going to get players back who're at their level, and certainly not younger, cheaper players with even more upside to develop. A (usually) 45-50 point, 2-way, all situation defenseman who plays 24-25 minutes a night and is still only 28? And a 26 year old potential 40+ goal, 70+ point winger who's starting to round out his defensive play as well? You'll get players who aren't as good as they are, don't have as much of a ceiling as they do, and probably a couple of draft picks thrown in to 'even it out.' Any trade of either of those two would be a trade 'down' for 'depth.'

RAFritchey wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:21 pm

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:36 pm

Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:05 pm

Yeah, just to be clear, Steen now isn't Steen of old, so ship him out if you can. As Tim put so eloquently, "Steen can eat a bag of dicks for all I care." I just meant to imply that he WAS very important to this team and had made a positive impact in the past. I am absolutely ok with shipping out anyone close to the core of this team right now.

I agree with that. To me, I want to see ROR, Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, Edmunson, Bortz, Parayko, and Barbashev stay. I would hope Army explores trading Petro and Tarasenko, because they could bring back the kind of talent that would make this team better for now, and the future. If Binnington plays well, I suppose he would have to stay also. Bortz and Barbashev stay because they wouldn't bring backa lot in value, and because they play the kind of energized game that we need to play.

If you trade Petro and/or Tarasenko, unless they're part of a package, you're not going to get players back who're at their level, and certainly not younger, cheaper players with even more upside to develop. A (usually) 45-50 point, 2-way, all situation defenseman who plays 24-25 minutes a night and is still only 28? And a 26 year old potential 40+ goal, 70+ point winger who's starting to round out his defensive play as well? You'll get players who aren't as good as they are, don't have as much of a ceiling as they do, and probably a couple of draft picks thrown in to 'even it out.' Any trade of either of those two would be a trade 'down' for 'depth.'

Possible, but it might be that in a year or two, we would be much better. The idea is, you don't trade them if it's nota good deal for us. We need players who can bring strengthsc to this team that are missing. Self starters. We have way too many followers on this team. It's ludicrous that it takes an entire period for this squad to realize they are playing dumb. We need a few players who will raise hell, scream and yell on the bench if that's what it takes to wake these people up. This team had too be restructured, and there are onlyafew players who can bring back the kind of return we need. Jmo

I don't even expect Tarasenko to score anymore when he gets the puck. That wasn't the case a few years ago.

What if the problem is something else...like a bunch of team wives hating a star players spouse, so things from home carry over to work?

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:30 pm

RAFritchey wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:21 pm

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:36 pm

I agree with that. To me, I want to see ROR, Kyrou, Schenn, Thomas, Edmunson, Bortz, Parayko, and Barbashev stay. I would hope Army explores trading Petro and Tarasenko, because they could bring back the kind of talent that would make this team better for now, and the future. If Binnington plays well, I suppose he would have to stay also. Bortz and Barbashev stay because they wouldn't bring backa lot in value, and because they play the kind of energized game that we need to play.

If you trade Petro and/or Tarasenko, unless they're part of a package, you're not going to get players back who're at their level, and certainly not younger, cheaper players with even more upside to develop. A (usually) 45-50 point, 2-way, all situation defenseman who plays 24-25 minutes a night and is still only 28? And a 26 year old potential 40+ goal, 70+ point winger who's starting to round out his defensive play as well? You'll get players who aren't as good as they are, don't have as much of a ceiling as they do, and probably a couple of draft picks thrown in to 'even it out.' Any trade of either of those two would be a trade 'down' for 'depth.'

Possible, but it might be that in a year or two, we would be much better. The idea is, you don't trade them if it's nota good deal for us. We need players who can bring strengthsc to this team that are missing. Self starters. We have way too many followers on this team. It's ludicrous that it takes an entire period for this squad to realize they are playing dumb. We need a few players who will raise hell, scream and yell on the bench if that's what it takes to wake these people up. This team had too be restructured, and there are onlyafew players who can bring back the kind of return we need. Jmo

Too many followers for sure, that's for damn sure. But who are they following?? Look at their supposed leader, the captain. Great talent, but up to this point, not a leader at least not a leader in a physical, emotional game. He plays "excuse me" hockey. Not good enough. We need a Sutter type both behind the bench and on the ice.

Theiceman wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 9:16 pm

barnburner wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:30 pm

RAFritchey wrote: Mon Dec 10, 2018 5:21 pm

If you trade Petro and/or Tarasenko, unless they're part of a package, you're not going to get players back who're at their level, and certainly not younger, cheaper players with even more upside to develop. A (usually) 45-50 point, 2-way, all situation defenseman who plays 24-25 minutes a night and is still only 28? And a 26 year old potential 40+ goal, 70+ point winger who's starting to round out his defensive play as well? You'll get players who aren't as good as they are, don't have as much of a ceiling as they do, and probably a couple of draft picks thrown in to 'even it out.' Any trade of either of those two would be a trade 'down' for 'depth.'

Possible, but it might be that in a year or two, we would be much better. The idea is, you don't trade them if it's nota good deal for us. We need players who can bring strengthsc to this team that are missing. Self starters. We have way too many followers on this team. It's ludicrous that it takes an entire period for this squad to realize they are playing dumb. We need a few players who will raise hell, scream and yell on the bench if that's what it takes to wake these people up. This team had too be restructured, and there are onlyafew players who can bring back the kind of return we need. Jmo

Too many followers for sure, that's for damn sure. But who are they following?? Look at their supposed leader, the captain. Great talent, but up to this point, not a leader at least not a leader in a physical, emotional game. He plays "excuse me" hockey. Not good enough. We need a Sutter type both behind the bench and on the ice.

Why is this type of captain viewed as a "need" to wear the C? There are many successful captains who weren't a Brent Sutter type of player. They weren't/aren't a Backes type of captain. Petro does deserve some blame, but I don't place it squarely on him. Steen, Tarasenko, Schwartz, Parayko, Edmundson, Bouw, many of the veterans of this team deserve some blame. I know it's unpopular but I'm with Tim on the wanting Steen gone already bandwagon. I don't care how much of a heart and soul player he is. He was good for the Blues for about a 5-6 year stretch and outside of that, he's basically been your average top 9 player who works hard so many here love him. I think all the players on the roster deserve to take some blame, but there's a select few that actually need to be gone from this team. Steen, Bouw, Gunnarsson, Bortuzzo, Allen, Johnson (already gone), Maroon, and Fabbri could all be let go and have no effect on how a new coach would treat this team. The way I look at this situation, I want to see a new coach which we probably won't until after the end of the season. But, I want to see a new coach with O'Reilly, Tarasenko, Schwartz, Schenn, Parayko, Petro, Dunn, and Edmundson as your new "core" going forward and a new direction for the team. You can fill in the rest as you see fit around them. All the young guys need to stay. Thomas, Kyrou, Kostin, Sanford, Schmaltz, Binnington, Husso, and a few others down in San Antonio should all stick around and be given a chance under a new coach and new direction for the Blues.

I get that because Reaves, Backes, Ott, Brouwer, etc. have all left after the last few years, people think that's the missing element in this game. I disagree. I think the missing element has been a clear direction for the team to go in, and it starts from the top down. Armstrong talked about how the league is getting faster, but he hasn't added a ton of actual speed to this team. The league is obviously moving away from the grind it out style that the Blues and LA won with over that stretch and Armstrong has tried to adapt but hasn't done the best job getting players in here who can truly play that style of hockey. He hasn't addresses a clear goaltender issue over the last years. Berube, Yeo, and even Hitch's last year have all been some amalgamation of grinding tough defensive, up tempo offensive, and transition/speed game that just hasn't worked. Whether it's been the defensive breakdowns of this year, last year's goaltending, only 1 line scoring, and depth issues, or the roller coaster that was the Hitch/Yeo coach in waiting disaster, it's just been a down swoon that some probably saw coming because Armstrong is basically trying to put together a team that he really never has put together before. Armstrong is learning and having to adapt to a new NHL and I'm wondering if he's the right guy to do it. Does he have the right pulse of the league or is he a step or two behind? All over, you look at teams that are having success this year and last and they have a few key elements that all match. Average to above average goaltending, young players making HUGE impacts, and at least 1 truly dominate forward line doing lots of scoring. They are all playing similar brands of hockey. It's not the grinding, cycle, cycle, cycle, dump and chase game that are the types of teams Armstrong is used to building. I give Armstrong all the credit in the world for trying something totally new, but so far, it's not having the success he wanted. It's why I said guys like Maroon, Steen, Bouw, Gunnarsson (more because he's a UFA now and the Blues could use almost 3 million in cap space), Bortuzzo, Thorburn, and Nolan are the older style players that Armstrong needed for his types of teams. The rest of the forwards and defense can play the way the NHL is trending. I am not sure about those I keep mentioning. Some might argue that Edmundson should be in that group, but I think given opportunities, Ed has enough offensive upside that he can play.

If I'm the ownership and management of this team, unless you can get Quenneville or AV in here now, you ride out the season with Berube. You start moving pieces regardless of who's injured, meaning, moving UFAs like Maroon, Bortuzzo, Bouwmeester, and Gunnarsson, once or if he's healthy, for whatever you can get. Look at moving at least two forwards, one must be Steen, but look also at Fabbri, Bozak, Perron, or Schwartz (although I'd love to keep him) and see if you can get picks or some young B level prospects back. Steen and probably Schwartz would net you the biggest hauls, obviously, but you can start to restructure the team a bit. Then you also look at moving Allen. For what, I don't care, and it will probably cost you a pick and decent prospect to get rid of his contract, but someone will take a chance on Jake. Once you start reacquiring picks and prospects, you can clear cap space as well and start retooling this team to meet today's style of play. Hopefully, you also get a top 10 if not top 5 or 3 pick at this year's draft out of it as well and with the right moves, you're potentially a playoff team next year right away.

Here's my take ona Captain. As evidenced by guys like Lidstrom, the guy who wears the C does not necessarily have to be a tough, screamer type.
However, this particular team seems to be populated mostly by followers. We have a few guys, like ROR and Schenn who probably would be taking a more active part in speaking up, but don't want to appear as if they are stepping on Petro's toes. I'm a believer in the old adage:
"Lead, Follow, or Get The Fuck Out Of The Way"
Petro needs to give up the C, and let somebody have it that will take an active interest in shoring up the present void in leadership.

Not going to quote your whole post wannabe, but I think you made some good points. The C itself is overplayed, but leadership group as a whole has been atrocious or just non-existent. In my opinion, if the situation isn't quite so simple as "player X is a cancer", you just remove as much or all of the group as possible. I have no idea what's going on in the room of course, but suppose it's a cut and dried case of Steen being THE problem. Great, just move him and move on. Since it's likely far more complex, I'm much more inclined to move them all. I never thought I'd have this opinion, but if all of the leadership group is behaving like children, ship out all 3 of Steen/Petro/Tarasenko. Dump the expiring contracts (Gunnar/JBo etc) at the deadline for whatever you can get.
That's a fresh start alright. You'll get loads in return to the point that you should be able to compete next year if that's the goal of the trades. Keep/trade whoever you see fit after that. There's enough skill and cap space left to attract a good coach, and a group ready to turn the page.