Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:48 pm

BluesSK wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:11 pm

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:44 am

He hit em with the ole, "you can't fire me, I QUIT!"

So even before the whole racism issue came up people in the NHL knew that Peters is a jerk and the Flames still hired him but strangely this wasn't a problem when they were winning.

Lot of face saving going on right now.

There’s a lot of coaches who are “jerks.”

Sorry. Physically abusive jerks.

So Sean Avery says Marc Crawford kicked him during a game. Whatever

BillP. wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:54 pm So Sean Avery says Marc Crawford kicked him during a game. Whatever

You should probably post a bit more context when posting this. Like how Avery also talked about how he himself tried to fight an assistant coach.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:04 pm

BillP. wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:54 pm So Sean Avery says Marc Crawford kicked him during a game. Whatever

You should probably post a bit more context when posting this. Like how Avery also talked about how he himself tried to fight an assistant coach.

Any Coach that kicked, punched, or bit Avery, should get an award. What a piece of shit he was.

barnburner wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:10 pm

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:04 pm

BillP. wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:54 pm So Sean Avery says Marc Crawford kicked him during a game. Whatever

You should probably post a bit more context when posting this. Like how Avery also talked about how he himself tried to fight an assistant coach.

Any Coach that kicked, punched, or bit Avery, should get an award. What a piece of shit he was.

He had a good stretch as the most hated man in hockey. So glad he never ended up in a Blues uniform.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:04 pm

BillP. wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 3:54 pm So Sean Avery says Marc Crawford kicked him during a game. Whatever

You should probably post a bit more context when posting this. Like how Avery also talked about how he himself tried to fight an assistant coach.

I didn’t read the article, only went with the heading on USA Today.

For all of those worried about this catching up with all the hard coaches in the world and everyone losing their jobs, The Athletic has a piece on Torts, who would, knowing his blow ups he’s had previously, probably be on the top of the list of guys who may have crossed lines. A bunch of his players, however, are saying the same thing—he’s tough but he doesn’t cross the line into being abusive. As this stuff goes on, this is the kind of stuff I hope we hear more about.

What I really hate is that nobody can say anything...if they do say something then they are wrong. Hitchcock comes out and says “they are going after everybody” and then get chastised for saying that.
Chaser fired back at Carcillo and told him the real shame is “all the guys that don’t agree with what Carcillo is doing are staying quiet”.

Avery ran his mouth and then backtracked a bit regarding Crawford. Damage is already done though . This is exactly what I was referring too last week.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:22 am Avery ran his mouth and then backtracked a bit regarding Crawford. Damage is already done though . This is exactly what I was referring too last week.

But the good news is, we are all adults capable of critical thinking so as these stories rightfully come out, we can analyze them on an individual basis and decide how we feel/react to each.

Some transgressions from years past don't warrant present day repercussions and some do.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:22 am Avery ran his mouth and then backtracked a bit regarding Crawford. Damage is already done though . This is exactly what I was referring too last week.

That's going to be an interesting one. I think with all of these cases that have popped up and may in the future it's going to be incumbent on the team that employs the Coach/GM/whoever to really do their due diligence with their investigation. If Aliu's story wasn't confirmed by many teammates both in the story and then after it came out, would Peters still have his job (set aside the Flames record this year)? It's impossible to say, but I give the Flames credit for conducting their own investigation after the story came out rather than canning him immediately, which would've been the easy PR move. The risk of the old player with an ax to grind making unfair accusations is out there, so those investigations in cases like that will be critical.

What I think is incredibly important and probably the best thing about the Peters/Aliu story is that it should show that this kind of shit will not be tolerated going forward. This is speculation on my part since I've never been there, but I'd imagine players in Aliu's situation (in 2010, not 2019) had to chose between confronting their coach and possibly derailing their career, or sucking it up and letting it eat you up inside. There are more options now. Coaches need to be aware of that and be more responsible with how they handle their position of power, but players absolutely need to be responsible with how they handle their newfound power as well.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:36 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:22 am Avery ran his mouth and then backtracked a bit regarding Crawford. Damage is already done though . This is exactly what I was referring too last week.

But the good news is, we are all adults capable of critical thinking so as these stories rightfully come out, we can analyze them on an individual basis and decide how we feel/react to each.

Some transgressions from years past don't warrant present day repercussions and some do.

Sorry dude but it just ain’t right. I mean who in the hockey world didn’t already know that Marc Crawford has always been an asshole of a person and coach? Avery calls him out and then backtracks. Now his name is associated and always will be. I don’t even like Crawford....I actually could never stand him but to shit on him like that is just plain wrong.
You and me aren’t gonna agree on this and that’s ok.

So what are those who were truly assaulted or abused do Tim? Say nothing? Yes, it sucks in a huge way ( I know this personally) to be falsely accused or to have exaggerated claims made against you. It hurts, and yes, it can hurt your family and career.

But what other options do we have? Here is really the only options there are through my perspective:

1. No one speaks up when assaulted or abused, they just have to deal with it as part of life and accept it and not try to fix the problem so others do not go through the same issue.
2. Speak up, but you have to do it then and there, who cares if you are a minor or young adult that is concerned about THEIR reputation and career for speaking up. Let's remember, with maturity comes experience and confidence, along with a greater sense of right and wrong and less worry about repercussions.
3. Speak up when you are ready. Others may jump on the bandwagon and make false or exaggerated claims similar to yours, but that doesn't devalue your claim or the original challenge to fix the culture within the organization.

I guess the point is that most folks can see through the BS claims and exaggerations made. I'm pretty sure the Sutters and others hockey legends have pretty thick skin and won't be negatively affected by all of this. I personally don't hold any man or woman on a pedestal, I learned that lesson a long time ago. No one is above being called out for wrong, no matter what or how much 'good they did'. Point being that everyone man and woman has their faults. And society and leadership is typically a fair judge once the facts come out. If you look at the reaction just on this very small sample of Blues fans, so far everyone (100% from what I see) is agreement that using racial, ethnic, sexist, etc words are totally unacceptable. I don't think anyone here or the majority of the hockey world disagrees with this. As to coach's hitting players, I think the majority think this is totally unacceptable, although there may be some grey area as to what constitutes "hitting" for some. And lastly, the hazing....this is pretty much minor in most folks opinions here and not a big deal. It is something that is being phased our already so not many care about that issue.

LSS: Everything will be OK. Hockey will survive this, and while some feelings will be hurt and we'll have to sift through the BS from the real deal, but in the end the culture of hockey SHOULD be better from this period. Hopefully it reminds anyone in an authority position to think of the ramifications of their actions and words. Because you are entrusted with a lot of responsibility. Don't abuse it.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:47 am

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:36 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:22 am Avery ran his mouth and then backtracked a bit regarding Crawford. Damage is already done though . This is exactly what I was referring too last week.

But the good news is, we are all adults capable of critical thinking so as these stories rightfully come out, we can analyze them on an individual basis and decide how we feel/react to each.

Some transgressions from years past don't warrant present day repercussions and some do.

Sorry dude but it just ain’t right. I mean who in the hockey world didn’t already know that Marc Crawford has always been an asshole of a person and coach? Avery calls him out and then backtracks. Now his name is associated and always will be. I don’t even like Crawford....I actually could never stand him but to shit on him like that is just plain wrong.
You and me aren’t gonna agree on this and that’s ok.

These two things seem to contradict each other. It seems his name was already associated with it before Avery brought it up.

And I do think we agree on some things on this, such as I think if Crawford loses his job for this, I would not agree with that decision. But I'm also not his employer who gets to decide that.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:47 am Sorry dude but it just ain’t right. I mean who in the hockey world didn’t already know that Marc Crawford has always been an asshole of a person and coach? Avery calls him out and then backtracks. Now his name is associated and always will be. I don’t even like Crawford....I actually could never stand him but to shit on him like that is just plain wrong.
You and me aren’t gonna agree on this and that’s ok.

I think the story I posted above about Tortorella pretty well demonstrates that "being an asshole" isn't what is getting these guys in trouble. Tortorella is the biggest asshole in the sport I'd say and yet players are saying he's not abusive. There's a line, and Avery isn't the only guy whose saying he was abusive. Patrick O'Sullivan has had a book out since 2015 where he details how Crawford was abusive to him, physically and verbally.

Again. I don't see any reason to be freaking out about hard coaches who aren't abusive getting caught up in this and getting in trouble. It hasn't happened thus far and the story about Tortorella seems to demonstrate that players aren't just going to shit on coaches who are tough on them. Even Duclair, who Tortorella said "doesn't know how to play hockey" to the media about, said Torts wasn't bad.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:04 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:47 am

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:36 am

But the good news is, we are all adults capable of critical thinking so as these stories rightfully come out, we can analyze them on an individual basis and decide how we feel/react to each.

Some transgressions from years past don't warrant present day repercussions and some do.

Sorry dude but it just ain’t right. I mean who in the hockey world didn’t already know that Marc Crawford has always been an asshole of a person and coach? Avery calls him out and then backtracks. Now his name is associated and always will be. I don’t even like Crawford....I actually could never stand him but to shit on him like that is just plain wrong.
You and me aren’t gonna agree on this and that’s ok.

These two things seem to contradict each other. It seems his name was already associated with it before Avery brought it up.

And I do think we agree on some things on this, such as I think if Crawford loses his job for this, I would not agree with that decision. But I'm also not his employer who gets to decide that.

People in the hockey world knew this about Crawford but there are millions of people outside the hockey verse that didn’t and when the name of Crawford is mentioned....he’s know seen as an abuser.
Again the Aliu situation for me is vastly different than all the other stories coming out. The game culture was different back then. How many guys went through the same thing as Carcillo and never even thought of it as abuse? Sheldon Kennedy, Theo Fleury and Joe Sakic....those guys even though Sakic stayed quiet have legit abuse stories. That’s just how I view it....and I realize you and Brad might view it completely different. Partying, drinking and doing weird ass shit in the WHL....that was just life back in the day of guys that wanted to be pro hockey players. Doesn’t make it right but there are a lot of players that lived that same life as as Carcillo and aren’t calling out the Sutters.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:26 am

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:04 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:47 am

Sorry dude but it just ain’t right. I mean who in the hockey world didn’t already know that Marc Crawford has always been an asshole of a person and coach? Avery calls him out and then backtracks. Now his name is associated and always will be. I don’t even like Crawford....I actually could never stand him but to shit on him like that is just plain wrong.
You and me aren’t gonna agree on this and that’s ok.

These two things seem to contradict each other. It seems his name was already associated with it before Avery brought it up.

And I do think we agree on some things on this, such as I think if Crawford loses his job for this, I would not agree with that decision. But I'm also not his employer who gets to decide that.

People in the hockey world knew this about Crawford but there are millions of people outside the hockey verse that didn’t and when the name of Crawford is mentioned....he’s know seen as an abuser.
Again the Aliu situation for me is vastly different than all the other stories coming out. The game culture was different back then. How many guys went through the same thing as Carcillo and never even thought of it as abuse? Sheldon Kennedy, Theo Fleury and Joe Sakic....those guys even though Sakic stayed quiet have legit abuse stories. That’s just how I view it....and I realize you and Brad might view it completely different. Partying, drinking and doing weird ass shit in the WHL....that was just life back in the day of guys that wanted to be pro hockey players. Doesn’t make it right but there are a lot of players that lived that same life as as Carcillo and aren’t calling out the Sutters.

Which is why I said we are all capable to analyzing each accusation and determining for ourselves how we feel about them individually.

I will say though, two people can go through identical situations and view them completely differently. Doesn't mean Carcillo is wrong, wouldn't mean Theo Fluery is wrong. But you as a person get to decide how you feel about Marc Crawford, if someone else hates him now, that's for them to deal with.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:31 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:26 am

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:04 am

These two things seem to contradict each other. It seems his name was already associated with it before Avery brought it up.

And I do think we agree on some things on this, such as I think if Crawford loses his job for this, I would not agree with that decision. But I'm also not his employer who gets to decide that.

People in the hockey world knew this about Crawford but there are millions of people outside the hockey verse that didn’t and when the name of Crawford is mentioned....he’s know seen as an abuser.
Again the Aliu situation for me is vastly different than all the other stories coming out. The game culture was different back then. How many guys went through the same thing as Carcillo and never even thought of it as abuse? Sheldon Kennedy, Theo Fleury and Joe Sakic....those guys even though Sakic stayed quiet have legit abuse stories. That’s just how I view it....and I realize you and Brad might view it completely different. Partying, drinking and doing weird ass shit in the WHL....that was just life back in the day of guys that wanted to be pro hockey players. Doesn’t make it right but there are a lot of players that lived that same life as as Carcillo and aren’t calling out the Sutters.

Which is why I said we are all capable to analyzing each accusation and determining for ourselves how we feel about them individually.

I will say though, two people can go through identical situations and view them completely differently. Doesn't mean Carcillo is wrong, wouldn't mean Theo Fluery is wrong. But you as a person get to decide how you feel about Marc Crawford, if someone else hates him now, that's for them to deal with.

I never liked Crawford....I think he’s one of two people in hockey that I’ve actually used the word hate on....other being Ryan Kessler

Yeo abused us.

BluesSK wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:48 amYeo abused us.

Hell....The Blues organization mentally abused some of their fans for 51 years!

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:53 am

BluesSK wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:48 amYeo abused us.

Hell....The Blues organization mentally abused some of their fans for 51 years!

So that's what's wrong with me

Hold on , I'm making more popcorn.

BlueinNy wrote: Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:43 am Hold on , I'm making more popcorn.

Oh this is a popcorn of a thread if there ever was one. Come in and give your opinion

I think I'll sit this one out, it gets to quasi political. I like hockey though.

My Marine Corps Drill Instructor is reading all these abuse complaints, and laughing his ass off.