Re: LeBron James

6
Trump said Un is a madman. Un said trump is mentally deranged. I think they're both right.

I disagree with James. Trump is not a bum because he has millions of dollars. He is a narcissist, a racist, and an asshole, but he is not a bum. Hopefully he'll go broke and then become a bum.

Re: LeBron James

7
barcthespark wrote:Trump said Un is a madman. Un said trump is mentally deranged. I think they're both right.

I disagree with James. Trump is not a bum because he has millions of dollars. He is a narcissist, a racist, and an asshole, but he is not a bum. Hopefully he'll go broke and then become a bum.
true that.

Also, I'd love to see players in the NHL (and all sports) start to take a united action in speaking up against social injustice and police brutality. Unfortunately, the message has been hijacked to be a about the flag, the anthem, Trump, Colin, James, etc instead of what it should be about: progress towards equal social justice and an end to police brutality.
"Do Only Good Everyday"

Re: LeBron James

9
bradleygt89 wrote:
barcthespark wrote:Trump said Un is a madman. Un said trump is mentally deranged. I think they're both right.

I disagree with James. Trump is not a bum because he has millions of dollars. He is a narcissist, a racist, and an asshole, but he is not a bum. Hopefully he'll go broke and then become a bum.
true that.

Also, I'd love to see players in the NHL (and all sports) start to take a united action in speaking up against social injustice and police brutality. Unfortunately, the message has been hijacked to be a about the flag, the anthem, Trump, Colin, James, etc instead of what it should be about: progress towards equal social justice and an end to police brutality.
Well said.

Re: LeBron James

11
BillP wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote: and an end to police brutality.
The best answer to police brutality or the potential of incurring police brutality is to stay out of trouble.
Do you honestly think that being in 'trouble' justifies excessive use of force against a human? Interesting is the mind set of certain humans.
"Do Only Good Everyday"

Re: LeBron James

12
bradleygt89 wrote:
BillP wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote: and an end to police brutality.
The best answer to police brutality or the potential of incurring police brutality is to stay out of trouble.
Do you honestly think that being in 'trouble' justifies excessive use of force against a human? Interesting is the mind set of certain humans.
So in the Shockley case you had a heroin dealer resisting arrest, trying to run over the cops with his car, and then driving away at 100 miles an hour putting other innocent people's lives at risk and people are protesting for this? You're right, it's interesting the mind set of certain humans.

Re: LeBron James

13
CaptSMRT wrote:Trump is about 23 billion light years from awesome.
So The Donald could be considered awesome in some yet-to-be discovered galactic system approx. halfway to the edge of our currently observable universe? Certainly worth a fund raising excursion in anticipation of his second term.

Re: LeBron James

14
BillP wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:
BillP wrote:
The best answer to police brutality or the potential of incurring police brutality is to stay out of trouble.
Do you honestly think that being in 'trouble' justifies excessive use of force against a human? Interesting is the mind set of certain humans.
So in the Shockley case you had a heroin dealer resisting arrest, trying to run over the cops with his car, and then driving away at 100 miles an hour putting other innocent people's lives at risk and people are protesting for this? You're right, it's interesting the mind set of certain humans.
Is it the job of the police to provide judgement and execution? Or is it to arrest and provide public safety? Regardless of what Smith had done up to the point, once he was rendered no longer a threat after his vehicle was disabled, it was the job of the police to arrest him, not kill him. However, as documented in the court reports, Shockley had already premeditated that he was going to kill Smith, and the he did.

And just as you can provide specific cases where the victim of police shooting was actually guilty of a crime, there are many others that can be provided where someone was shot under no fault of their own. Did that lady in MN deserve to be killed, I mean was she really causing trouble Billy, when she called 911 after suspecting someone else was causing trouble and then a trigger happy cop panicked and killed her?

Long story short, we can argue specific cases as much as you like, but police aren't supposed to be the judge, jury and executioner of justice. They are here to serve and protect ALL of us.
"Do Only Good Everyday"

Re: LeBron James

15
bradleygt89 wrote:
BillP wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:
Do you honestly think that being in 'trouble' justifies excessive use of force against a human? Interesting is the mind set of certain humans.
So in the Shockley case you had a heroin dealer resisting arrest, trying to run over the cops with his car, and then driving away at 100 miles an hour putting other innocent people's lives at risk and people are protesting for this? You're right, it's interesting the mind set of certain humans.
Is it the job of the police to provide judgement and execution? Or is it to arrest and provide public safety? Regardless of what Smith had done up to the point, once he was rendered no longer a threat after his vehicle was disabled, it was the job of the police to arrest him, not kill him. However, as documented in the court reports, Shockley had already premeditated that he was going to kill Smith, and the he did.

And just as you can provide specific cases where the victim of police shooting was actually guilty of a crime, there are many others that can be provided where someone was shot under no fault of their own. Did that lady in MN deserve to be killed, I mean was she really causing trouble Billy, when she called 911 after suspecting someone else was causing trouble and then a trigger happy cop panicked and killed her?

Long story short, we can argue specific cases as much as you like, but police aren't supposed to be the judge, jury and executioner of justice. They are here to serve and protect ALL of us.
Police have a tough job and their lives are on the line too. It's not easy.

But here's my point. You will never have "perfection" with the Police. Because in life, there's bad apples everywhere. Whether it's in the teaching profession, doctors, lawyers, sports, anything, anywhere, you're always going to have bad apples. So with police officers, there's the possibility of running into a bad cop. So, I'm going to say what I said before, be the best citizen you can and stay out of trouble. Don't put yourself at risk at the hands of an officer.

Re: LeBron James

16
Billy, considering that LEO are armed and trained with how to used deadly force, shouldn't the bar be set a bit higher for 'perfection' than for a teacher, doctor, or lawyer?

No one says that a cops job is easy, but if they cannot handle it and follow the rule of law themselves AND be held to the same level of accountability that we expect from regular ole citizens, aren't we asking for trouble just right there? If you have a busted taillight, if you call 911, if your somehow DO find yourself around trouble, shouldn't you have confidence that the LEO there to 'protect and serve' you will have your back? That they are there to truly help, not to put more lives in danger?

The issue with police brutality and social injustice isn't about labeling cops as a group as 'bad', it is about calling out the lack of accountability and protectionism that police receive for when they DO make mistakes. A 10% conviction rate for police? Please.
"Do Only Good Everyday"

Re: LeBron James

17
bradleygt89 wrote:Billy, considering that LEO are armed and trained with how to used deadly force, shouldn't the bar be set a bit higher for 'perfection' than for a teacher, doctor, or lawyer?

No one says that a cops job is easy, but if they cannot handle it and follow the rule of law themselves AND be held to the same level of accountability that we expect from regular ole citizens, aren't we asking for trouble just right there? If you have a busted taillight, if you call 911, if your somehow DO find yourself around trouble, shouldn't you have confidence that the LEO there to 'protect and serve' you will have your back? That they are there to truly help, not to put more lives in danger?

The issue with police brutality and social injustice isn't about labeling cops as a group as 'bad', it is about calling out the lack of accountability and protectionism that police receive for when they DO make mistakes. A 10% conviction rate for police? Please.
I understand your point of view - well said.

Re: LeBron James

18
BillP wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote: and an end to police brutality.
The best answer to police brutality or the potential of incurring police brutality is to stay out of trouble.
You know what else decreases the potential of incurring police brutality?
Not being black.
Not being Hispanic.
Not being poor.
Not living in a rough neighborhood.
Not driving a shitty car.

None of which has anything to do with personal character.

Re: LeBron James

19
bradleygt89 wrote:
BillP wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:
Do you honestly think that being in 'trouble' justifies excessive use of force against a human? Interesting is the mind set of certain humans.
So in the Shockley case you had a heroin dealer resisting arrest, trying to run over the cops with his car, and then driving away at 100 miles an hour putting other innocent people's lives at risk and people are protesting for this? You're right, it's interesting the mind set of certain humans.
Is it the job of the police to provide judgement and execution? Or is it to arrest and provide public safety?
When you run from the police, and use your vehicle as a weapon, you are the one who is dictating what happens, it doesn't matter if the police pulled him over for a game of tiddley winks. Your drivers license is a contract that states you will comply with a police officers instructions....it's a condition of the privilege to drive. Had Shockley killed Smith when he tried to run him over he would have been legally within his rights. It is speculative at best that Shockley planted a weapon, and to convict him you need proof beyond any reasonable doubt, even drug dealers are protected by these standards.

I think this is a terrible outcome and the result of stupid drug interdiction policies. Why isn't anyone putting the heat on the people who are really responsible for this, the apathetic voting public that has allowed the drug war to drag on, or the administrators who set this policy?

We ask the police to do a really difficult job that requires split second decisions, which can lead to loss of life. There are 18,000 police agencies in the United States, each with their own unique challenges.
There are 12 million arrests annually, and roughly 1000 end up in a fatality or .008%, which seems like a fairly reasonable success rate when you consider the level of violent crimes on the streets, over 140 murders in St Louis City for 2017. I do not see how anyone can represent this as the police are executing anyone.

Re: LeBron James

20
CaptSMRT wrote:When you run from the police, and use your vehicle as a weapon, you are the one who is dictating what happens, it doesn't matter if the police pulled him over for a game of tiddley winks. Your drivers license is a contract that states you will comply with a police officers instructions....it's a condition of the privilege to drive. Had Shockley killed Smith when he tried to run him over he would have been legally within his rights. It is speculative at best that Shockley planted a weapon, and to convict him you need proof beyond any reasonable doubt, even drug dealers are protected by these standards.

I think this is a terrible outcome and the result of stupid drug interdiction policies. Why isn't anyone putting the heat on the people who are really responsible for this, the apathetic voting public that has allowed the drug war to drag on, or the administrators who set this policy?

We ask the police to do a really difficult job that requires split second decisions, which can lead to loss of life. There are 18,000 police agencies in the United States, each with their own unique challenges.
There are 12 million arrests annually, and roughly 1000 end up in a fatality or .008%, which seems like a fairly reasonable success rate when you consider the level of violent crimes on the streets, over 140 murders in St Louis City for 2017. I do not see how anyone can represent this as the police are executing anyone.
Strong points there with the data - nice

Re: LeBron James

21
CaptSMRT wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:
BillP wrote:
So in the Shockley case you had a heroin dealer resisting arrest, trying to run over the cops with his car, and then driving away at 100 miles an hour putting other innocent people's lives at risk and people are protesting for this? You're right, it's interesting the mind set of certain humans.
Is it the job of the police to provide judgement and execution? Or is it to arrest and provide public safety?
When you run from the police, and use your vehicle as a weapon, you are the one who is dictating what happens, it doesn't matter if the police pulled him over for a game of tiddley winks. Your drivers license is a contract that states you will comply with a police officers instructions....it's a condition of the privilege to drive. Had Shockley killed Smith when he tried to run him over he would have been legally within his rights. It is speculative at best that Shockley planted a weapon, and to convict him you need proof beyond any reasonable doubt, even drug dealers are protected by these standards.

I think this is a terrible outcome and the result of stupid drug interdiction policies. Why isn't anyone putting the heat on the people who are really responsible for this, the apathetic voting public that has allowed the drug war to drag on, or the administrators who set this policy?

We ask the police to do a really difficult job that requires split second decisions, which can lead to loss of life. There are 18,000 police agencies in the United States, each with their own unique challenges.
There are 12 million arrests annually, and roughly 1000 end up in a fatality or .008%, which seems like a fairly reasonable success rate when you consider the level of violent crimes on the streets, over 140 murders in St Louis City for 2017. I do not see how anyone can represent this as the police are executing anyone.
Yes, much of the blame does fall on the drug war.

And while I'm not in position to verify the data you used, besides the 1,000 killed by police, that's still too many. Again, it's not about all cops are bad or racists, it's about the lack of accountability when there IS evidence, and the continuous protectionism that police receive from their own, from the DA, and overall from the public.

We can also get into the whole justice system, racial profiling, etc that are also part of this protest. We as a nation are progressing. For some who are stuck in segregation mode, it is too fast. For some who've never seen or felt the injustice of our justice system, it's just about right. But for those of us who have experienced the injustice either personally, via a loved one, or just by having our eyes opened to the truth, we demand more, because we do believe we can and should be better.
"Do Only Good Everyday"

Re: LeBron James

22
bradleygt89 wrote:
CaptSMRT wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:
Is it the job of the police to provide judgement and execution? Or is it to arrest and provide public safety?
When you run from the police, and use your vehicle as a weapon, you are the one who is dictating what happens, it doesn't matter if the police pulled him over for a game of tiddley winks. Your drivers license is a contract that states you will comply with a police officers instructions....it's a condition of the privilege to drive. Had Shockley killed Smith when he tried to run him over he would have been legally within his rights. It is speculative at best that Shockley planted a weapon, and to convict him you need proof beyond any reasonable doubt, even drug dealers are protected by these standards.

I think this is a terrible outcome and the result of stupid drug interdiction policies. Why isn't anyone putting the heat on the people who are really responsible for this, the apathetic voting public that has allowed the drug war to drag on, or the administrators who set this policy?

We ask the police to do a really difficult job that requires split second decisions, which can lead to loss of life. There are 18,000 police agencies in the United States, each with their own unique challenges.
There are 12 million arrests annually, and roughly 1000 end up in a fatality or .008%, which seems like a fairly reasonable success rate when you consider the level of violent crimes on the streets, over 140 murders in St Louis City for 2017. I do not see how anyone can represent this as the police are executing anyone.
Yes, much of the blame does fall on the drug war.

And while I'm not in position to verify the data you used, besides the 1,000 killed by police, that's still too many. Again, it's not about all cops are bad or racists, it's about the lack of accountability when there IS evidence, and the continuous protectionism that police receive from their own, from the DA, and overall from the public.

We can also get into the whole justice system, racial profiling, etc that are also part of this protest. We as a nation are progressing. For some who are stuck in segregation mode, it is too fast. For some who've never seen or felt the injustice of our justice system, it's just about right. But for those of us who have experienced the injustice either personally, via a loved one, or just by having our eyes opened to the truth, we demand more, because we do believe we can and should be better.
Those stats are all easy to look up....FBI crime statistics.

To the first part: I believe the police are given that consideration because of the position they are put in. Take this situation...I feel like it is pretty compelling when a guy says I am going to kill someone, and then kills them moments later, however, there is still the burden of proof, Shockley said he had a gun, he had a reasonable suspicion he would have a gun...Smith having been arrested prior for illegal possession of a firearm, there was a gun recovered from the car, the FBI chose not to seek charges. Is this the outcome we want? No. I blame the policy more than the officer told to stick his nose in a drug deal.

Re: LeBron James

23
bradleygt89 wrote:
BillP wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote: and an end to police brutality.
The best answer to police brutality or the potential of incurring police brutality is to stay out of trouble.
Do you honestly think that being in 'trouble' justifies excessive use of force against a human? Interesting is the mind set of certain humans.
If that person is putting other peoples lives in danger or that cops life in danger....damn straight. Don't deal drugs out of your car. Don't run from police and lead them on a 90mph chase and don't resist when they come to your car. You do any of that and that cop has every right to take your ass out.
Last edited by NHLTIM on Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LeBron James

24
CaptSMRT wrote:
NHLTIM wrote:Trump is awesome.

You also said the Preds were going to win game 7.
I sure did but I wasn't all butt hurt when they lost either! :o
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"Suck a dick Johansen"

"Official Sponsor of the Legend....Jeremy Roenick"

Re: LeBron James

25
Trump called NFL players "sons of bitches" so he's kind of opened himself up to players calling him names now. LeBron could have said much worse than "bum." That's one of my biggest issues with Trump. I don't know about y'all, but when I was raised I was told if you can't take it then don't dish it out. Trump constantly insults pretty much everyone, then when anyone wants to insult or criticize him back, he whines and claims he's the victim of a witch hunt or treated unfairly. Trump, if you can't take being insulted (which you've repeatedly shown you can't) quit insulting other people.

As for the police stuff, this is a really good article that analyzes police shootings of citizens across the country. I know a lot of you probably aren't statisticians like me, but essentially what the researcher did was try and determine the probability of being shot given that a person is unarmed and black compared to the probability of being shot given that a person is unarmed and white. The researcher did this while controlling for geographic differences and other factors. What did he find? The probability of being shot by a police officer given that you are unarmed and black is 3.5 times higher than the probability of being shot by a police officer given that you are unarmed and white.

This article didn't have data to control for what crime the person is accused of committing, which could explain some of that difference (though likely not all of it). There are other research articles that do control for that though and find similar results.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4634878/

I was skeptical about this kind of thing for a long time, but more and more stuff like this is coming out, and well when the data is telling you something we should listen to it.