Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#26
Matangama wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm
BillP. wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:43 pm
Sounds like Petro is gone. Army threw out his offer to Backes and that was pretty much it. I think he spoke of common ground with Backes too. How much does captaincy, legacy, memories and the equity of goodwill in STL mean to Petro? We’ll find out.
I trust Army to do the right thing. He certainly did with Backes.
Yeah, I can’t argue about Army at all. I agree, he will make the right call. I respect him for not throwing money at these guys in an irresponsible manner. He plays hard ball, and he usually gets his way. He’s very consistent with the way he manages this team. He deserves a ton of credit.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#27
Bill, it can’t be easy for Army to play hardball with guys like Backes and Petro. The easy thing to do would be to give them the fat, long-term deal. But LA did that with Doughty and San Jose did with Karlsson and both of those deals were instantly shit! I hope Petro stays, but his contract scares the crap out of me.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#28
Matangama wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:14 pm
Bill, it can’t be easy for Army to play hardball with guys like Backes and Petro. The easy thing to do would be to give them the fat, long-term deal. But LA did that with Doughty and San Jose did with Karlsson and both of those deals were instantly shit! I hope Petro stays, but his contract scares the crap out of me.
Agreed. From my pov, which won't buy a glass of water, if Petro is going to stay, he's going to have to want it bad enough to settle for less than he could get elsewhere. He has a chance to be an sports icon here, and to have his jersey in the rafters.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#29
Matangama wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:50 pm
BillP. wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:43 pm
Sounds like Petro is gone. Army threw out his offer to Backes and that was pretty much it. I think he spoke of common ground with Backes too. How much does captaincy, legacy, memories and the equity of goodwill in STL mean to Petro? We’ll find out.
I trust Army to do the right thing. He certainly did with Backes.
He definitely called it right.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#30
I see it from both sides. No sense in Petro taking a somewhat low offer from DA when he can explore what options are out there and maybe gain some additional leverage. And no sense in DA bidding against himself in this climate where we don't yet know how free agency will play out for the guys at the top of the market.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#31
Cujo's Mask wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:46 am
I see it from both sides. No sense in Petro taking a somewhat low offer from DA when he can explore what options are out there and maybe gain some additional leverage. And no sense in DA bidding against himself in this climate where we don't yet know how free agency will play out for the guys at the top of the market.
Agreed Cujo.....only way a deal gets done gets done right away is if Armstrong overpays and gives an 8 year deal. This one is going to be a struggle for both sides.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#32
Well, there’s a Petro thread over at NHL talk thread on HF Boards. And a lot of fans think Petro will get offered 11M. If that’s the case then he’s gone. On the Overdrive show on TSN, Mike Johnson thinks Petro is only valued at 8M. The other 2 gents think he’s going to command a Roman Josi type deal at 9.5M. But MJ counters back that Petro is 31 and it’s not the same comparison. You get the feeling there’s an outside shot Army will go up to 9M, but I really doubt he’ll give him the term he wants. Someone out there is going to offer an 8 year deal. It just really looks like he’s gone. Another interesting point by MJ was that the Blues only have 2M cap space for next year without Petro signed.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#33
Interesting quote from a top free agent:
“I don’t think the money is going to be what it was before Covid or before this season, but that’s fine,” he said. “I think we get paid a lot of money to play a game and we’ll see what happens.”

That’s from Taylor Hall, not Petro......but hopefully Petro is as reasonable (seemingly) as Hall is. If Petro’s agent does their normal, super aggressive “top dollar” routine, That’s not going to work too well with Army.

Can’t post the link and I’m tired of trying! It’s a “Latest on NHL’s top 20 free agents” from Sportsnet.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#34
BillP. wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:04 am
Well, there’s a Petro thread over at NHL talk thread on HF Boards. And a lot of fans think Petro will get offered 11M. If that’s the case then he’s gone. On the Overdrive show on TSN, Mike Johnson thinks Petro is only valued at 8M. The other 2 gents think he’s going to command a Roman Josi type deal at 9.5M. But MJ counters back that Petro is 31 and it’s not the same comparison. You get the feeling there’s an outside shot Army will go up to 9M, but I really doubt he’ll give him the term he wants. Someone out there is going to offer an 8 year deal. It just really looks like he’s gone. Another interesting point by MJ was that the Blues only have 2M cap space for next year without Petro signed.
Supposedly Petro asked for a little less than Josi back before the season but Army offered something in the 8s (from a JR piece recently). The $11M guys have no idea what they're talking about. He'll end up at $8.5 I bet.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#35
BillP. wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:04 am
Well, there’s a Petro thread over at NHL talk thread on HF Boards. And a lot of fans think Petro will get offered 11M. If that’s the case then he’s gone. On the Overdrive show on TSN, Mike Johnson thinks Petro is only valued at 8M. The other 2 gents think he’s going to command a Roman Josi type deal at 9.5M. But MJ counters back that Petro is 31 and it’s not the same comparison. You get the feeling there’s an outside shot Army will go up to 9M, but I really doubt he’ll give him the term he wants. Someone out there is going to offer an 8 year deal. It just really looks like he’s gone. Another interesting point by MJ was that the Blues only have 2M cap space for next year without Petro signed.
Supposedly Petro asked for a little less than Josi back before the season but Army offered something in the 8s (from a JR piece recently). The $11M guys have no idea what they're talking about. He'll end up at $8.5 I bet.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#36
Dave's a mess wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 10:13 am
BillP. wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:04 am
Well, there’s a Petro thread over at NHL talk thread on HF Boards. And a lot of fans think Petro will get offered 11M. If that’s the case then he’s gone. On the Overdrive show on TSN, Mike Johnson thinks Petro is only valued at 8M. The other 2 gents think he’s going to command a Roman Josi type deal at 9.5M. But MJ counters back that Petro is 31 and it’s not the same comparison. You get the feeling there’s an outside shot Army will go up to 9M, but I really doubt he’ll give him the term he wants. Someone out there is going to offer an 8 year deal. It just really looks like he’s gone. Another interesting point by MJ was that the Blues only have 2M cap space for next year without Petro signed.
Supposedly Petro asked for a little less than Josi back before the season but Army offered something in the 8s (from a JR piece recently). The $11M guys have no idea what they're talking about. He'll end up at $8.5 I bet.
If Petro gets $11M, it wont be here. Your $8.5m is probably right in the ballpark. $9M at those most. Bad timing on Petros part.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#38
BillP. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:58 am
What are the odds if Petro walks that Army throws an offer to Shattenkirk? Anyone thinks Army entertains the thought?
I could definitely see Shatty coming back, but even if Petro leaves, I doubt Army would offer Shattenkirk much. Plus, he seems a bit redundant with Faulk. But if Shatty is over his delusion of being a #1 defenseman, then it’s possible. I think he fits really well in Tampa, though, so guessing he stays there.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

#39
Matangama wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:06 am
BillP. wrote:
Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:58 am
What are the odds if Petro walks that Army throws an offer to Shattenkirk? Anyone thinks Army entertains the thought?
I could definitely see Shatty coming back, but even if Petro leaves, I doubt Army would offer Shattenkirk much. Plus, he seems a bit redundant with Faulk. But if Shatty is over his delusion of being a #1 defenseman, then it’s possible. I think he fits really well in Tampa, though, so guessing he stays there.
Good god no. Shatty/Faulk/Dunn on the same blue line?! That’s a whole lot of vomit.

    Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

    #40
    BillP. wrote:
    Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:58 am
    What are the odds if Petro walks that Army throws an offer to Shattenkirk? Anyone thinks Army entertains the thought?
    I don't think so. Perunovich should move right into the lineup and there are still 7 other NHL ready D without Petro if you count Mikkola.
    ...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

    Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

    #42
    Just posted this in the Loony Bin......things are way too fucking quiet over here in this FAR superior forum, so I’m posting it here as well.

    A guy posted this on Spector’s site. I’m not a cap expert by any stretch of the imagination, so maybe this isn’t doable. If it is, this could work, assuming the Blues want to come up with $10 mil or so in cash for the first 5 years. Again, not my work:

    Offer Petro 8 years
    5 @ $1M Sal; followed by 3 @ $800 K (meets max Salary differential of 20%) Sal; give him $46.6 M in Signing Bonus spread over ONLY first 5 years
    Total contract is $54M… Cap hit $6.75 M
    I’m sure he’d have accepted 6 @ $9 M … $54 M from Blues
    After 5 years ; he drops from SB + Sal in year 5 of about $10M – $10.5 M to 800 K to start a year @35… great incentive to retire … and very very likely he would
    Before he retires he’s collected $51.6 M of the $54 (all gross)… 96%; and is only walking away from at best $1.2 M take home; to play 3 more gruelling years… he retires IMHO
    Net… Army gets very palatable $6.75 M cap for 5 years; Petro gets effectively a 5 @ $10.3M CASH contract; retires at 35; gone from Cap
    Army shy of doing those SB’s? He’ll lose him then cuz Cash rich Leafs will have absolutely no issue whatsoever offering more in SB…. Leafs will give him the $54 M contract over 7… Cap $7.7 M; structured as above… Sal $1M yrs 1-5 followed by 2 @ $800K … $47.4 M in SBs over 1st 5 years… Petro retires at 35 having collected 52.6/54… 97.4 % of contract and walking away from less than 800 K take home to retire at 35

    Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

    #43
    I don’t think that works. I’m pretty sure the CBA rules that eliminated these back diving contracts look at total compensation - signing bonus and salary - and not just the base salary.

    Edit: I looked on CapFriendly but couldn’t find it, but I’m pretty sure there is a provision that the total compensation change can’t be more than 35% from one year to the next, and that the lowest compensation year must be at least 50% of the highest. If there is a $12M year in a contract, the lowest total compensation can drop to is $6M in the lowest year.

    Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

    #44
    Matangama wrote:
    Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:56 pm
    Just posted this in the Loony Bin......things are way too fucking quiet over here in this FAR superior forum, so I’m posting it here as well.

    A guy posted this on Spector’s site. I’m not a cap expert by any stretch of the imagination, so maybe this isn’t doable. If it is, this could work, assuming the Blues want to come up with $10 mil or so in cash for the first 5 years. Again, not my work:

    Offer Petro 8 years
    5 @ $1M Sal; followed by 3 @ $800 K (meets max Salary differential of 20%) Sal; give him $46.6 M in Signing Bonus spread over ONLY first 5 years
    Total contract is $54M… Cap hit $6.75 M
    I’m sure he’d have accepted 6 @ $9 M … $54 M from Blues
    After 5 years ; he drops from SB + Sal in year 5 of about $10M – $10.5 M to 800 K to start a year @35… great incentive to retire … and very very likely he would
    Before he retires he’s collected $51.6 M of the $54 (all gross)… 96%; and is only walking away from at best $1.2 M take home; to play 3 more gruelling years… he retires IMHO
    Net… Army gets very palatable $6.75 M cap for 5 years; Petro gets effectively a 5 @ $10.3M CASH contract; retires at 35; gone from Cap
    Army shy of doing those SB’s? He’ll lose him then cuz Cash rich Leafs will have absolutely no issue whatsoever offering more in SB…. Leafs will give him the $54 M contract over 7… Cap $7.7 M; structured as above… Sal $1M yrs 1-5 followed by 2 @ $800K … $47.4 M in SBs over 1st 5 years… Petro retires at 35 having collected 52.6/54… 97.4 % of contract and walking away from less than 800 K take home to retire at 35
    It doesn't matter how you structure it, there is not a scenario on this planet that Petro takes an 8 year deal at 6.75. Besides the fact that this contract isn't legal for the reason Mook pointed out, there's no reason to assume he's going to be ready to retire at 35. By that point the league minimum would be over $800k in all likelihood. While it does benefit the players to take more compensation in the form of a signing bonus, not enough to make up for leaving, say...$10 million on the table, plus the opportunity cost of whatever he'd be able to make at market value those last 3 years.

    And now a tangent on the benefits of signing bonuses that somewhat undermines my point...The biggest benefit is that signing bonuses can't be bought out and are essentially guaranteed and buyout proof. For a lesson on the value of having a good agent, take a look at the Erik Karlsson and Drew Doughty contracts on cap friendly. On the surface they're very similar deals. Both 8 year deals, Karlsson's at 11.5/year, Doughty at 11. The difference is that bonus structure. Doughty got a $10M bonus the first year, followed by 2, 4 and 4, then 0 the rest of the contract. Karlsson meanwhile got a bonus every year, with $5M and $6M the last two years. If Doughty is bought out in either of his last 2 seasons it saves the Kings $7.33M/season in cap space. If the Sharks buyout Karlsson, it'd save them a little over $3M if they do it with 2 years left, and only $1M if they do it for the final season of the contract. Karlsson gets paid a high of $14.5M throughout the life of the deal and a low of $7.5 at the end. Doughty more or less makes $11M every year.

    Now guess which player negotiated his own contract?
    ...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

    Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

    #48
    This was from a Petro question in JR's recent mailbag:
    One source said the Blues were offering a five-year deal that was closer to $7 million than $8 million.
    The belief is that Pietrangelo is not happy with any of the offers he has received and he’s very disappointed in the way things have been handled.
    Not looking great for the statue.
    ...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

    Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

    #49
    Dave's a mess wrote:
    Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:58 am
    This was from a Petro question in JR's recent mailbag:
    One source said the Blues were offering a five-year deal that was closer to $7 million than $8 million.
    The belief is that Pietrangelo is not happy with any of the offers he has received and he’s very disappointed in the way things have been handled.
    Not looking great for the statue.
    Never play poker with Army....
    da.JPG
    da.JPG (24.14 KiB) Viewed 94 times

    Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

    #50
    Dave's a mess wrote:
    Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:58 am
    This was from a Petro question in JR's recent mailbag:
    One source said the Blues were offering a five-year deal that was closer to $7 million than $8 million.
    The belief is that Pietrangelo is not happy with any of the offers he has received and he’s very disappointed in the way things have been handled.
    Not looking great for the statue.
    Just to add to that quote...this from the same article made things sound even worse:
    I’d expect the negotiations to continue, but multiple sources say that if Pietrangelo’s wife wasn’t from St. Louis, where the couple has started a family, he might have already told the Blues that he’s moving on.