Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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rocco_the_pig wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:01 pm hey gang, long time lurker (even back to the asylum)

anyways, had a question and I figure someone here will def know the answer. I get that there appears to be more to Petro's contract talks than just $$, but this just pertains to that.
My understanding is, LTIR does not go into effect until the beginning of the season. so IF (when?) Tarasenko goes on LTIR, any savings will only kick in then.

so the questions are:
- if he's out half the year, do we save half his salary against the cap?
- teams can go over the salary cap by 10% (again, I THINK I read this.. might be wrong) during the offseason. so the blues could go over by ~8 mil till the season starts, correct?
- if this is correct, doesn't that mean, right now, the blues would have (again what I've read) ~5 mil free now, plus the 8mil overage to use to sign salaries?

and I keep hearing Steen could be on the LTIR to begin the season as well, but I've never heard what exactly his injury is. at one point it was covid, then a bad back... etc... I THINK this is just some can conjecture, but wondering if anyone has heard definitively.

again, thx for taking the time for these!
Welcome aboard! I'll try to answer those quetsions as I understand them (so take that for what its worth) in order.

-LTIR does go into effect at start of season, so Blues would have to have cap space for Tarasenko on the roster on day 1, then could move him there to open space up. There are various ways of doing this but I'm not entirely sure of all of them.
-They pro-rate cap space, so the longer he's out, the more space you create. If he's out long, then comes back near the end of the season, the Blues would appear to be over the cap via a one day snapshot. The Hawks famously did this with Kane in their last Cup run when his injury conveniently healed up for the first game of the playoffs, allowing them to add a piece or two at the trade deadline without subtracting.
-Teams can go over in the offseason as long as they're compliant on day 1. 10% sounds right.
-They can certainly sign Petro or whoever to go over, yes as long as they make the math work when the season starts.

I don't know about Steen and LTIR. The thing I've heard that relates to all this is the possibility of a buyout. The Blues could save a bit of cap space next year with a buyout, however they can't do that if he's officially injured. I'm not sure that's something Armstrong would do anyway, but he might not even be healthy enough for it to be an option.

Anyway, feel free to lurk no longer!
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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BluesSK wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:16 pm
CaptSMRT wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 6:46 pm
Matangama wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:04 am

Totally depends on the AAV. If he signs for right around $8 mil, then I think Army says yes. Army showed his philosophy when signing Schenn. He flat out said that the last couple of years oF that deal could be less than ideal, but he was willing to take that chance. I assume that had a lot to do with the fact that Schenn signed for less than market value (or perceived market value at the time). After Kevin Hayes signed that fat deal with Philadelphia, Schenn was probably looking at $7+ in free agency......pre-Covid.
Is Pietrangelos negotiation Stillman sending the signal...the players are going to take their bite of the pandemic and probably can't expect the same pay scale as pre-covid times?
I haven't even really been considering this since we are always so concerned about keeping under the salary cap but a lot of teams must be really hurting right now.

We aren't looking at having fans in the stands when he next season starts in December/January.
That's the key point. The flat cap isn't a one year issue. It won't be Stillman or any other owner telling them they can't get a raise, it just the fact that there won't be enough pie for Petro to get as big of a piece as he was expecting. With very limited ticket sales if any next year, that cap isn't going to get much higher. I think they built in some mechanisms for it to artificially increase during the CBA extension earlier this year, but don't recall the detail. I believe Stillman has said they'll still be a cap team. I'm sure some owners will be shedding payroll, but by and large, signing these big free agents is going to be a GM problem, not an owner problem. The big loser in this is the Petros/Halls of the world.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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I'm not sure if this belongs here or not, but as it is about clearing cap space for Petro, I'll post it here.

The Senators have 7 picks in the first 2 rounds, 4 of them 2nd round picks. How about Steen to Ottawa for a 2nd rounder, they can pick which one. They are shedding salary and going with young players. While Steen is definitely in no young, he can help with those "intangibles" he does so well. He can provide useful minutes and a steadying influence on the younger players. He's only on the books for another year and they have a ton of cap space. We get a decent pick back from a team that has an abundance of them.

Discuss

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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Rivermanfan wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 12:09 pm I'm not sure if this belongs here or not, but as it is about clearing cap space for Petro, I'll post it here.

The Senators have 7 picks in the first 2 rounds, 4 of them 2nd round picks. How about Steen to Ottawa for a 2nd rounder, they can pick which one. They are shedding salary and going with young players. While Steen is definitely in no young, he can help with those "intangibles" he does so well. He can provide useful minutes and a steadying influence on the younger players. He's only on the books for another year and they have a ton of cap space. We get a decent pick back from a team that has an abundance of them.

Discuss
While I think a second is too steep a price, this makes sense for all parties logicially besides Steen. However, since Steen has a full no trade clause, it's pretty much out of the question. Another reason Steen would be attractive to the Senators is that he's one of those contracts that has a higher cap hit than actual salary that they so cheaply crave.

At the end of the day, I don't think Steen would wave his NTC to go anywhere, but if he did, it'd probably have to be a team that could make a run next year.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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Dave's a mess wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:57 am
rocco_the_pig wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 9:01 pm hey gang, long time lurker (even back to the asylum)

anyways, had a question and I figure someone here will def know the answer. I get that there appears to be more to Petro's contract talks than just $$, but this just pertains to that.
My understanding is, LTIR does not go into effect until the beginning of the season. so IF (when?) Tarasenko goes on LTIR, any savings will only kick in then.

so the questions are:
- if he's out half the year, do we save half his salary against the cap?
- teams can go over the salary cap by 10% (again, I THINK I read this.. might be wrong) during the offseason. so the blues could go over by ~8 mil till the season starts, correct?
- if this is correct, doesn't that mean, right now, the blues would have (again what I've read) ~5 mil free now, plus the 8mil overage to use to sign salaries?

and I keep hearing Steen could be on the LTIR to begin the season as well, but I've never heard what exactly his injury is. at one point it was covid, then a bad back... etc... I THINK this is just some can conjecture, but wondering if anyone has heard definitively.

again, thx for taking the time for these!
Welcome aboard! I'll try to answer those quetsions as I understand them (so take that for what its worth) in order.

-LTIR does go into effect at start of season, so Blues would have to have cap space for Tarasenko on the roster on day 1, then could move him there to open space up. There are various ways of doing this but I'm not entirely sure of all of them.
-They pro-rate cap space, so the longer he's out, the more space you create. If he's out long, then comes back near the end of the season, the Blues would appear to be over the cap via a one day snapshot. The Hawks famously did this with Kane in their last Cup run when his injury conveniently healed up for the first game of the playoffs, allowing them to add a piece or two at the trade deadline without subtracting.
-Teams can go over in the offseason as long as they're compliant on day 1. 10% sounds right.
-They can certainly sign Petro or whoever to go over, yes as long as they make the math work when the season starts.

I don't know about Steen and LTIR. The thing I've heard that relates to all this is the possibility of a buyout. The Blues could save a bit of cap space next year with a buyout, however they can't do that if he's officially injured. I'm not sure that's something Armstrong would do anyway, but he might not even be healthy enough for it to be an option.

Anyway, feel free to lurk no longer!
thx for the response! and LOVE the name! every time I see if that scene flashes in my head!

DAVE'S A KILLER!!

daves a mess... lol

anyways, I digress

so as far as $$ goes, the LTIR seems a way to get Petro in..ish

and I agree that Army isn't gonna crap on Steen regardless. but I'd really like to get a better understanding of his health issues.

it's easy to say 'dump bozak'. but, I REALLY like him being on this team! so underrated. and from all accounts, they LOVE it in STL. not sure how that goes with him.

personally, I don't like Sanford (nice hands, SUPER soft, perimeter player.. see "Campbell, Jim), I like Blais but he's showing that he can't stay healthy, like Gunny, but he's redundant right now.... these are pieces I'd be looking to move and could prolly get a coupla 2nds for them and create a little space under that cap with.

the shoulder with Tarasenko.. worrisome . got the stench of Babych/MacInnis/Jackman written all over it. especially Babych. such a shame. what a great player.

apologies for being all over the place with this post. and thx again for the response!

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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My guess is that he is willing to sign for 8 x 8 or a little higher, but the sticking point is that he wants most of the money in signing bonus and a full NMC. I still think this gets done when Army agrees to the full NMC if we limit the signing bonus to 30%-40% of the contract. I really think the NMC should be a non- issue for the team because he either won’t be tradable in his last couple of years or we won’t want to trade him. The rest is just waivers exemption and non-exposure for an expansion draft that won’t happen except after year one.

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MissouriMook wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 8:28 pm My guess is that he is willing to sign for 8 x 8 or a little higher, but the sticking point is that he wants most of the money in signing bonus and a full NMC. I still think this gets done when Army agrees to the full NMC if we limit the signing bonus to 30%-40% of the contract. I really think the NMC should be a non- issue for the team because he either won’t be tradable in his last couple of years or we won’t want to trade him. The rest is just waivers exemption and non-exposure for an expansion draft that won’t happen except after year one.
It's really a test of Armstrong's commitment to his philosophy. He's never given out a signing bonus, and I'm not sure about full NMC clauses. He's traded for guys with big bonuses (ROR most prominently), but never signed one of his own. He's given out NTCs before so yeah, that leap isn't a huge issue in Petro's case specifically. If Army really wants to keep Petro around, he's going to have to modify his no signing bonus stance. Alternatively, if he lets the captain of his Cup winning team walk over it while still at or near his prime, you figure he'll never give one out. If he has the earned reputation of never giving out signing bonuses, it underscores our lack of success rate signing big name free agents, and also adds a layer to the Backes negotiation a few years ago. Having said that, striking out on the first day of free agency generally isn't necessarily a bad thing long term.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

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I love Petro, as most people here know, but this one has me conflicted. Giving anyone that age an eight year deal I basically guaranteed to be painful the last 2-3 years. Saying that, 5 years of good hockey is a long time, so maybe that trade off is worth it.

I do think this is a Meehan vs Army problem. Meehan is huge on bonuses and if he’s looking for big bonuses in the last couple years than I don’t blame Army for playing hardball.

I’d be happy if they agree on an 8x8 extension but I’m comfortable with either outcome.

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Beatoni12 wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:14 pm I love Petro, as most people here know, but this one has me conflicted. Giving anyone that age an eight year deal I basically guaranteed to be painful the last 2-3 years. Saying that, 5 years of good hockey is a long time, so maybe that trade off is worth it.

I do think this is a Meehan vs Army problem. Meehan is huge on bonuses and if he’s looking for big bonuses in the last couple years than I don’t blame Army for playing hardball.

I’d be happy if they agree on an 8x8 extension but I’m comfortable with either outcome.
I agree with you. I think he will still be a good Dman eight years from now. He's been relatively durable and his skillset and mentality is so good that I don't think he will decline as guys like Keith and Seabrook did.

When all is said and done he will have had as good or better career than Drew Doughty.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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LeBrun sees Vegas, Toronto and Calgary as best landing spots for Pietrangelo


Surprised to see Calgary and Vegas listed here. Army has all the leverage here. There might not be many options in free agency that Petro likes. I'm guessing Colorado might be a player in this and I would think Petro would like it there. But guys like Dumba are out there and they will get swooped up. Petro does not have a whole lot of leverage here. Army holds all the cards IMO.

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BillP. wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:47 pm LeBrun sees Vegas, Toronto and Calgary as best landing spots for Pietrangelo


Surprised to see Calgary and Vegas listed here. Army has all the leverage here. There might not be many options in free agency that Petro likes. I'm guessing Colorado might be a player in this and I would think Petro would like it there. But guys like Dumba are out there and they will get swooped up. Petro does not have a whole lot of leverage here. Army holds all the cards IMO.
I don't understand how Army has all the leverage. If anything, Army has laid all his cards on the table by telling Petro to go to free agency and see what's out there. The only thing he has working in his favor is that Petro lives here. All of the teams mentioned will find a way to pay more than the $8M AAV Army has supposedly offered. All of them (to my knowledge) have no qualms about signing bonus structure. Most of them are contenders already. Maybe his desire to keep his family here where things are familiar is enough, it very well may be, but that's really the only possible thing that could keep him in a Blue note next season based on how things have unfolded in my opinion.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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Dave's a mess wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:25 pm
BillP. wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:47 pm LeBrun sees Vegas, Toronto and Calgary as best landing spots for Pietrangelo


Surprised to see Calgary and Vegas listed here. Army has all the leverage here. There might not be many options in free agency that Petro likes. I'm guessing Colorado might be a player in this and I would think Petro would like it there. But guys like Dumba are out there and they will get swooped up. Petro does not have a whole lot of leverage here. Army holds all the cards IMO.
I don't understand how Army has all the leverage. If anything, Army has laid all his cards on the table by telling Petro to go to free agency and see what's out there. The only thing he has working in his favor is that Petro lives here. All of the teams mentioned will find a way to pay more than the $8M AAV Army has supposedly offered. All of them (to my knowledge) have no qualms about signing bonus structure. Most of them are contenders already. Maybe his desire to keep his family here where things are familiar is enough, it very well may be, but that's really the only possible thing that could keep him in a Blue note next season based on how things have unfolded in my opinion.
Yeah, I don’t see any leverage on the Blues side. Colorado terrifies me as an option for Petro. They have some huge contracts coming up soon but have tons of cap space at the moment.

Re: Pietrangelo Free Agency Talk

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Dave's a mess wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:25 pm
BillP. wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:47 pm LeBrun sees Vegas, Toronto and Calgary as best landing spots for Pietrangelo


Surprised to see Calgary and Vegas listed here. Army has all the leverage here. There might not be many options in free agency that Petro likes. I'm guessing Colorado might be a player in this and I would think Petro would like it there. But guys like Dumba are out there and they will get swooped up. Petro does not have a whole lot of leverage here. Army holds all the cards IMO.
I don't understand how Army has all the leverage. If anything, Army has laid all his cards on the table by telling Petro to go to free agency and see what's out there. The only thing he has working in his favor is that Petro lives here. All of the teams mentioned will find a way to pay more than the $8M AAV Army has supposedly offered. All of them (to my knowledge) have no qualms about signing bonus structure. Most of them are contenders already. Maybe his desire to keep his family here where things are familiar is enough, it very well may be, but that's really the only possible thing that could keep him in a Blue note next season based on how things have unfolded in my opinion.
It's possible he might not get the desired city he wants in free agency. I think there's a good chance Toronto nabs someone else like Dumba. Unless the Vegas interest is real, if so then he's going there but I don't know why Vegas would be interested. Not sure why Calgary would be interested either but even if they were, would Petro really want to go to Alberta?

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BillP. wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 3:20 pm
Dave's a mess wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 1:25 pm
BillP. wrote: Wed Sep 23, 2020 12:47 pm LeBrun sees Vegas, Toronto and Calgary as best landing spots for Pietrangelo


Surprised to see Calgary and Vegas listed here. Army has all the leverage here. There might not be many options in free agency that Petro likes. I'm guessing Colorado might be a player in this and I would think Petro would like it there. But guys like Dumba are out there and they will get swooped up. Petro does not have a whole lot of leverage here. Army holds all the cards IMO.
I don't understand how Army has all the leverage. If anything, Army has laid all his cards on the table by telling Petro to go to free agency and see what's out there. The only thing he has working in his favor is that Petro lives here. All of the teams mentioned will find a way to pay more than the $8M AAV Army has supposedly offered. All of them (to my knowledge) have no qualms about signing bonus structure. Most of them are contenders already. Maybe his desire to keep his family here where things are familiar is enough, it very well may be, but that's really the only possible thing that could keep him in a Blue note next season based on how things have unfolded in my opinion.
It's possible he might not get the desired city he wants in free agency. I think there's a good chance Toronto nabs someone else like Dumba. Unless the Vegas interest is real, if so then he's going there but I don't know why Vegas would be interested. Not sure why Calgary would be interested either but even if they were, would Petro really want to go to Alberta?
I'm sure all of those teams are interested. He's the best RHD on the market and just captained a team to the Cup. Who wouldn't be interested? All of those teams have space or the ability to make it. Others probably do as well. The point is all of those teams are options, and options provide leverage. The question is will that leverage cause Army to compromise on his contract philosophy? I'm not so sure it will.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

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Another article focused on the Petro negotiations, this time from Greg Wyshinski of ESPN:

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/299 ... ouis-blues

Nothing new per se, but I think the paragraph that quotes Cam Janssen towards the end is the key takeaway. Basically all of this public posturing won't do anything to sway Armstrong. Petro's going to have to decide if the extra money (probably more favorably structured) is worth uprooting and starting over somewhere else.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

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Dave's a mess wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:03 am Another article focused on the Petro negotiations, this time from Greg Wyshinski of ESPN:

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/299 ... ouis-blues

Nothing new per se, but I think the paragraph that quotes Cam Janssen towards the end is the key takeaway. Basically all of this public posturing won't do anything to sway Armstrong. Petro's going to have to decide if the extra money (probably more favorably structured) is worth uprooting and starting over somewhere else.
Yep, very interesting. Makes sense, and both sides probably know it’s just a game of chicken, but I hope it doesn’t go down to the very last minute. Petro can certainly get a bit more money from another team, but playing in St. Louis is a pretty nice situation for players. Then you retire and hang out with the huge alumni group.....those guys have a blast and they all still skate together on a regular basis. Throw in the “married to a St. Louis girl thing” and I’m starting to believe the “PPP Scenario” (Petro public posturing) thing more every day.

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Matangama wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 11:51 am
Dave's a mess wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 10:03 am Another article focused on the Petro negotiations, this time from Greg Wyshinski of ESPN:

https://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/299 ... ouis-blues

Nothing new per se, but I think the paragraph that quotes Cam Janssen towards the end is the key takeaway. Basically all of this public posturing won't do anything to sway Armstrong. Petro's going to have to decide if the extra money (probably more favorably structured) is worth uprooting and starting over somewhere else.
Yep, very interesting. Makes sense, and both sides probably know it’s just a game of chicken, but I hope it doesn’t go down to the very last minute. Petro can certainly get a bit more money from another team, but playing in St. Louis is a pretty nice situation for players. Then you retire and hang out with the huge alumni group.....those guys have a blast and they all still skate together on a regular basis. Throw in the “married to a St. Louis girl thing” and I’m starting to believe the “PPP Scenario” (Petro public posturing) thing more every day.
Yeah, I think it's clearly a move to generate public support, but I just don't think Army gives a shit. I'm not faulting Petro for it at all, might as well give it a shot as long as you're not spreading lies (which I don't think he is). If Armstrong blinks, I don't think it has anything to do with pressure from the fans. Maybe if he learns about details that other teams are offering, he moves his offer in some way shape or form, but he'd suck at his job if he let us yahoos influence his decision.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

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Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:00 pm At what point do the Blues trade his rights?
If both sides have really put their "final offers" on the table and it's just not going to happen, then I think maybe Army gives permission to the agent to talk to other teams. The teams that have been mentioned (Toronto-15, Vegas-29, Calgary-19) all have their first round picks. Would Petro be willing to waive his NTC to negotiate with those teams if they were willing to offer Army a first rounder? Would they be willing to offer a first when they could wait a couple weeks and negotiate for free?

I don't know any of this. I'm really clueless as to how this ends up or even how I'd prefer it to end up. I thiiiiiiiiink I'd be willing to give Petro 8+x8, flags fly forever after all, but I don't know. If he signs, you're probably saying goodbye to Bozak this year and/or Schwartz next year. If you trade Schwartz this year, you can still get a useful return, so who knows how that plays out. Lots of moving parts. Should be an interesting 2 weeks or so.
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!