UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 am The Sutter’s aren’t going to get “cancelled” because Carcillo has some hazing stories, lol. I’ve only heard about this story from people who are worried about “cancel culture” spreading it. That’s not even close to being equivalent to the stuff Peters said/did.

Agree

May as well make some popcorn, it wont end for a while. Good men will be dragged through the dirt and lose their reputations and jobs. Just saying.

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 am The Sutter’s aren’t going to get “cancelled” because Carcillo has some hazing stories, lol. I’ve only heard about this story from people who are worried about “cancel culture” spreading it. That’s not even close to being equivalent to the stuff Peters said/did.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Bringing stuff up from the past an ruining the reputations of men that did a lot of good for a lot hockey players and people in general is just plain wrong.
Just wait until the stuff on Berube gets out. I’m sure it’s coming somewhere down the line. Somebody will have an axe to grind somewhere.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:02 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 am The Sutter’s aren’t going to get “cancelled” because Carcillo has some hazing stories, lol. I’ve only heard about this story from people who are worried about “cancel culture” spreading it. That’s not even close to being equivalent to the stuff Peters said/did.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Bringing stuff up from the past an ruining the reputations of men that did a lot of good for a lot hockey players and people in general is just plain wrong.
Just wait until the stuff on Berube gets out. I’m sure it’s coming somewhere down the line. Somebody will have an axe to grind somewhere.

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:02 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:46 am The Sutter’s aren’t going to get “cancelled” because Carcillo has some hazing stories, lol. I’ve only heard about this story from people who are worried about “cancel culture” spreading it. That’s not even close to being equivalent to the stuff Peters said/did.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Bringing stuff up from the past an ruining the reputations of men that did a lot of good for a lot hockey players and people in general is just plain wrong.
Just wait until the stuff on Berube gets out. I’m sure it’s coming somewhere down the line. Somebody will have an axe to grind somewhere.

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

Matangama wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 8:15 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:16 am This was my point yesterday....how far is this going to go now. Its disgusting but this is the world we live in. Congrats NHL' on your s "#metoo" movement...

Daniel Carcillo stirring shit up about the Sutters and junior hockey coaches. Fuck him.....one of the dirtiest players ever has now become Mr. Sensitive. I feel for him because of his problems with concussions, but now seems like he wants to lead the charge towards participation trophies for everyone. Hot damn......soy lattes all around!

Well said!

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:02 am

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Bringing stuff up from the past an ruining the reputations of men that did a lot of good for a lot hockey players and people in general is just plain wrong.
Just wait until the stuff on Berube gets out. I’m sure it’s coming somewhere down the line. Somebody will have an axe to grind somewhere.

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

Was bortz in a position of authority Tim? No. That's a difference. IF Berube, Ott, or a coach would have beat on Sanford physically, that's abuse. They are in a position of authority, a position that demands trust and respect.

Let's stop exaggerating the points here so as to minimize the real issue. Will some allegations come out just from a point of having an axe to grind? Yes, and that is unfortunate as it derails the real conversation. But as UMSL mentioned, the educated fan and observer will see through that. The point of all of this isn't to take anyone out or ruin their lives, it is to make sure that those who are in a position of authority STOP ABUSING that authority and those they are in charge of. There's a difference between being a 'hard ass' and being abusive. You can use negative consequences and fear of loss as a motivational tool, nothing wrong with that at all. That is different that abuse, and again, I think we all know that so please stop with the freaking slippery slope arguments.

bradleygt89 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:32 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

Was bortz in a position of authority Tim? No. That's a difference. IF Berube, Ott, or a coach would have beat on Sanford physically, that's abuse. They are in a position of authority, a position that demands trust and respect.

Let's stop exaggerating the points here so as to minimize the real issue. Will some allegations come out just from a point of having an axe to grind? Yes, and that is unfortunate as it derails the real conversation. But as UMSL mentioned, the educated fan and observer will see through that. The point of all of this isn't to take anyone out or ruin their lives, it is to make sure that those who are in a position of authority STOP ABUSING that authority and those they are in charge of. There's a difference between being a 'hard ass' and being abusive. You can use negative consequences and fear of loss as a motivational tool, nothing wrong with that at all. That is different that abuse, and again, I think we all know that so please stop with the freaking slippery slope arguments.

We can agree to disagree...but I won’t stop just like you and others won’t stop In regards to your views nor would I ever expect anybody to.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:02 am

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Bringing stuff up from the past an ruining the reputations of men that did a lot of good for a lot hockey players and people in general is just plain wrong.
Just wait until the stuff on Berube gets out. I’m sure it’s coming somewhere down the line. Somebody will have an axe to grind somewhere.

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

And for Big Walt on a couple of occasions, but, that's stretching the "abuse" term a bit.

Let's play a game, what is abusive, and what is "I just don't like you as a player/person"

1. Player doesn't fit well into a system and never is giving a shot due to the coach/GM others in authority. Not abuse.
2. Player goes through a traditional hazing period/performance that all others who have the same status (rookies). Not Abuse...as long as actual physical or mental/emotional abuse wasn't a part of the hazing. This is where it can be tricky for some, as some may consider it mentally/emotionally abusive to dress up grown men as babies or whatever. But again, they are all doing it together and if as a group they don't do it and pressure the organization to change it's induction culture for players, that will lead to a positive change.
3. A player is singled out due to his race, nationality, faith, sex, orientation, etc and is singularly hazed, ridiculed, and demeaned. This is abuse.
4. A player is physically or emotionally abused by a coach or other member of the organization that has authority over that player. This is abuse.

Again, I'm being a bit facetious here, as I do believe we all know the difference in what constitutes abusive behaviour. Let's keep the focus on changing the culture for the better, and not get sidetracked by the Commodores and Carcillo's of the world. Because as this is getting compared to the #metoo movement, there is a difference between telling a co-worker of the opposite sex hello and consistently using suggestive sexual innuendos towards that co-worker. For those men who still have a hard time understanding why saying 'you look beautiful today' or 'damn, that dress is hot' is annoying to your female co-worker, if your boss was homosexual or a female and consistently said 'wow ________, you look handsome as hell today! Those jeans sure to make your ass look fine son!" I'm sure you may laugh it off once, or even twice. But if it became part of the everyday culture, you'd eventually find it abusive and either feel like you need a new job or your performance would suffer as you hate to come to work everyday.

Changing culture and society norms isn't about 'cancelling' anything positive. It is about making sure those in power and authority use that power to better their organization AND those they are in charge of.

/

barnburner wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:47 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

And for Big Walt on a couple of occasions, but, that's stretching the "abuse" term a bit.

To someone out there it won’t be “stretching” at all.
And to Brads point about authority figures...Bortz is a veteran player ....hockey code says he is an authority figure over younger players at least in that room.
Again..my whole point yesterday was about all the other shit that might come out and now here we are.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:41 am

bradleygt89 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:32 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

Was bortz in a position of authority Tim? No. That's a difference. IF Berube, Ott, or a coach would have beat on Sanford physically, that's abuse. They are in a position of authority, a position that demands trust and respect.

Let's stop exaggerating the points here so as to minimize the real issue. Will some allegations come out just from a point of having an axe to grind? Yes, and that is unfortunate as it derails the real conversation. But as UMSL mentioned, the educated fan and observer will see through that. The point of all of this isn't to take anyone out or ruin their lives, it is to make sure that those who are in a position of authority STOP ABUSING that authority and those they are in charge of. There's a difference between being a 'hard ass' and being abusive. You can use negative consequences and fear of loss as a motivational tool, nothing wrong with that at all. That is different that abuse, and again, I think we all know that so please stop with the freaking slippery slope arguments.

We can agree to disagree...but I won’t stop just like you and others won’t stop In regards to your views nor would I ever expect anybody to.

You can exaggerate and make slippery slope arguments Tim, or course. I wouldn't moderate that, even if I could

My point is that your focus seems to be on the 'what if' instead of the 'holy shit, we have some issues within our beloved sport's culture'. You have agreed that Peters was an idiot for saying what he is accused of. I would just hope that we as fans on this board would not be trying to draw similarities between someone being/using racist terms to someone who while in their position of authority decided they just didn't like a player and 'buried them in the minors' or had rookies go through a hazing process that was normal back then. If we focus on the latter, then the message of trying to fix the first get's lost. That's all.

Here is an example, and others who served in the military probably had similar experiences: when I made E-4 and became a Petty Officer 3rd Class, I went through a 'hazing' that was part of the frocking ceremony. After the new insignia was worn for the first time, the higher enlisted ranks and officers would come over and give either a light, or hard, punch to the insignia. This was a source of pride and considering tradition. Not sure if they still do it, but I never considered this abuse, as it was part of the tradition. However, if an officer or higher ranked enlisted person would have just struck me out of anger or for 'discipline' reasons while I was under their authority, that is abuse.

I guess to summarize and end my input, we have two choices:

We can ignore past abusive transgressions that happened, OR we can accept that these things happened and sort through all the bullshit from the real shit, and make the sport, and maybe even parts of society, better for it in the future.

Will there be some unfortunate things that come to light, along with some things that are misrepresented or even slanderous? Yes. But my hope is that we would focus on the real shit and ignore the bullshit, and then use that knowledge to make ourselves better and those around us better. Ignoring the issue won't make it go away on its own though, IMO. We always say why don't someone speak up...well, folks are speaking up now. It's up to us to decide on what to focus on and what to do with this information as it come out and those in positions of power in the hockey world will hopefully use it to better the hockey culture.

/

There are two different stories here. The Peters thing with Aliu and rap music is one thing. The abuse thing with Peters and all these others is a different story. That’s how I view it, so when I’m mentioning the story on the Sutter brothers that has nothing to do with them making racist remarks....of course we don’t know what might come out. Nothing will surprise me but the mindset was different 20-30 years ago. It was a different culture. Sure put a stop to it today...move forward that’s fine. I personally don’t want to see good men that help build and influence this game we all love be attacked for the way they did things years ago when the culture was different.
Herb Brooks was the ultimate abuser, both physical and mental and that man Is a legend and so many peoples lives are better because of him. That’s just the way the game was back in the day, that’s the games history. We don’t need to call it out all these years later.

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:54 am

barnburner wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:47 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

And for Big Walt on a couple of occasions, but, that's stretching the "abuse" term a bit.

To someone out there it won’t be “stretching” at all.
And to Brads point about authority figures...Bortz is a veteran player ....hockey code says he is an authority figure over younger players at least in that room.
Again..my whole point yesterday was about all the other shit that might come out and now here we are.

If it's relevant and justified, deal with it. If not, Fuck 'Em!

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:54 am

barnburner wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:47 am

And for Big Walt on a couple of occasions, but, that's stretching the "abuse" term a bit.

To someone out there it won’t be “stretching” at all.
And to Brads point about authority figures...Bortz is a veteran player ....hockey code says he is an authority figure over younger players at least in that room.
Again..my whole point yesterday was about all the other shit that might come out and now here we are.

When you have to use huge leaping exaggerations like claiming fighting in hockey between two players or the Blues playing a heavy team game in the playoffs is going to be called abuse to "someone out there", you know you don't have much of a leg to stand on here.

This isn't about lunatic extremes on either side, Tim. It's about common sense and logical thinking. You seem more outraged and concerned for the people committing the offenses than those on the receiving end of it.

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:22 pm

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:54 am

barnburner wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:47 am

And for Big Walt on a couple of occasions, but, that's stretching the "abuse" term a bit.

To someone out there it won’t be “stretching” at all.
And to Brads point about authority figures...Bortz is a veteran player ....hockey code says he is an authority figure over younger players at least in that room.
Again..my whole point yesterday was about all the other shit that might come out and now here we are.

When you have to use huge leaping exaggerations like claiming fighting in hockey between two players or the Blues playing a heavy team game in the playoffs is going to be called abuse to "someone out there", you know you don't have much of a leg to stand on here.

This isn't about lunatic extremes on either side, Tim. It's about common sense and logical thinking. You seem more outraged and concerned for the people committing the offenses than those on the receiving end of it.

The Blues playing a heavy game in the playoffs...lol...what does that have to do with anything?
I’ve got plenty of leg to stand on because I talked about where this is gonna go and today we’ve got Dan Carcillo crying about the Sutters. This is exactly what I thought was gonna happen. Shit that happened years ago being brought up to tarnish people. What Carcillo did there is pretty cowardly.
As for being in support of people committing these offenses? Reread the thread...nowhere in this thread have I supported Bill Peters. When Dan Carcillo tries to trash a family with the hockey roots the Sutters have....I’m not ok with that at all.
You and I aren’t ever going to agree on anything so let’s just move on. You have your views and I have mine and we have plenty of people that share the views we both share.

I guess all that the 'others' are saying Tim is that we are OK for it to all come out; the ugly truth of racism and bigotry, along with the bullshit accusations. And I think the majority of folks can all see through the bullshit and personal grievances that may be aired. Commodore has bitched for years about Babcock, and I'm sure somewhere in the past Carcillo probably muttered something about the Sutter's. Unfortunately there will be more of that, but there could also be some more serious stuff that should be aired out too, and that will help punctuate the need for change in culture, which I believe we all want.

Please keep this in mind; there will always be outliers who bitch and moan about stuff that you and I won't agree with, from all extremes. There have been loud voices calling for an end to fighting in hockey for years for example, but the game continues it because the majority of fans, and players wish to see it continue as part of the professional sport. And there are those who long for yesteryear when a crosscheck, spear, and slash to the hands was acceptable and think that line brawls are more entertaining than the actual game of hockey. But I don't think anyone wants to see abusive, bigoted, or intolerant behavior as part of the sport. So as we go through this period of culture change that started over the past couple of decades and continues into the future, we will have instances like this where it reminds those in authority within the hockey world that they know the standard of expectations for their actions, and that those who abuse that authority will be held accountable.

LSS: I think we all agree that what Peters said was intolerant, racist, and wrong. I guess what we disagree about is how when one rock gets overturned and we see some ugly truth that's happened recently in our game, that it is OK for other rocks to be turned over, and that it is up to us and those who positions of power in the hockey world to decide what is truly abusive and what is not. And I don't think anyone here is really upset about the Sutter acquisitions by Carcillo. But he has a right to air them. Again, it's up to us as paying customers and those in authority to decide if its worthy of anything to change in culture.

Looks like Peters has been fired

NHLTIM wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am Looks like Peters has been fired

He hit em with the ole, "you can't fire me, I QUIT!"

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:02 am

This is just the tip of the iceberg. Bringing stuff up from the past an ruining the reputations of men that did a lot of good for a lot hockey players and people in general is just plain wrong.
Just wait until the stuff on Berube gets out. I’m sure it’s coming somewhere down the line. Somebody will have an axe to grind somewhere.

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

Open season?!

Step back from the ledge slowly Tim. We all love you and there are many many more that do as well. It's ok to "worry" but this tin foil hat thinking has got you hook line and sinker and we all want whats best for you, former and current coaches/players alike.

barnburner wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:47 am

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

And for Big Walt on a couple of occasions, but, that's stretching the "abuse" term a bit.

He abused a few buffet lines....

Ozzies09tc wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 7:08 pm

NHLTIM wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:43 am

UMSLBlues12 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:34 am

I mean...if they did actual bad stuff (Peters), I’m sure they’ll be judged accordingly. If all they did was dress up rookies in girls clothes, a thing a team like the Cardinals have done openly in the past...I seriously doubt the backlash is going to be that big. Like I said. I haven’t heard anything about the Sutter stories except from people who are super worried about “cancel culture”. I haven’t heard anyone say “the Sutter’s should never be involved in hockey again!”

We don’t know what’s going to come out. It’s open season. This #hockey abuse is funny as hell. I mean we as fans just a year ago cheered the hell out of Bortz for abusing the fuck out of Sanford in practice!

Open season?!

Step back from the ledge slowly Tim. We all love you and there are many many more that do as well. It's ok to "worry" but this tin foil hat thinking has got you hook line and sinker and we all want whats best for you, former and current coaches/players alike.

I’m not on any ledge

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:44 am

NHLTIM wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am Looks like Peters has been fired

He hit em with the ole, "you can't fire me, I QUIT!"

So even before the whole racism issue came up people in the NHL knew that Peters is a jerk and the Flames still hired him but strangely this wasn't a problem when they were winning.

Lot of face saving going on right now.

BluesSK wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:11 pm

Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:44 am

NHLTIM wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 10:27 am Looks like Peters has been fired

He hit em with the ole, "you can't fire me, I QUIT!"

So even before the whole racism issue came up people in the NHL knew that Peters is a jerk and the Flames still hired him but strangely this wasn't a problem when they were winning.

Lot of face saving going on right now.

There’s a lot of coaches who are “jerks.”