I think people just see that he's an Edmonton Oiler and are terrified....SpacemanSpiff wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:33 pmStronger, faster, and heavier shot than Berglund. I think it's typical of some teams to see all of the physical attributes and just be enamored with that side of things.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:52 pm Puljujarvi reminds me of Berglund. but dumber, slower, and with lower point totals. All whie having higher expecations on him.
Well, they're not wrong. It's not like Edmonton has a sparkling draft record or league-renowned scouting program.NHLTIM wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:39 pmI think people just see that he's an Edmonton Oiler and are terrified....SpacemanSpiff wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:33 pmStronger, faster, and heavier shot than Berglund. I think it's typical of some teams to see all of the physical attributes and just be enamored with that side of things.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:52 pm Puljujarvi reminds me of Berglund. but dumber, slower, and with lower point totals. All whie having higher expecations on him.
Parayko is, at worst, what he is now, a good. young, all-around second pairing defenseman, who plays 22-23 minutes a night and may still have top-pairing upside. Puljujarvi, at worst, is another Yakupov or Paajarvi. I really don't know what upside he still has. Berglund on a good year (20+ goals, around 50 points, sound 2-way play)? Mats Sundin as a winger?Owns outstanding size and terrific, game-breaking talent. Skates very well and owns a great release. Knows where to go in order to score goals. Can also be a physical presence. Is a great playmaker. Like most young players, he needs to improve his defensive-zone coverage. Also needs to be more game-to-game consistent in order to maximize production in the National Hockey League.
Athanasiou is one of the few guys in the league physically capable of keeping up with McDavid. That's a smart match on paper.NHLTIM wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:42 pm Speaking of some trade rumors....Friedman mentions that the Oilers are interested in Andreas Athanasiou. Now that's a guy that I would love to see us add. Wings looking for a dman if they were to trade him.
We don't know what's going on in Edmonton to be honest. Hall gets traded and wins the Hart trophy and granted he was always a decent player but the the last few years before the trade....he was just an above average player. There is something wrong with their player development. The whole thing needs to be gutted....seems like they are ruining kids.RAFritchey wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:00 pmWell, they're not wrong. It's not like Edmonton has a sparkling draft record or league-renowned scouting program.NHLTIM wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:39 pmI think people just see that he's an Edmonton Oiler and are terrified....SpacemanSpiff wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:33 pm
Stronger, faster, and heavier shot than Berglund. I think it's typical of some teams to see all of the physical attributes and just be enamored with that side of things.
He seems to have all the tools: size (6'4" 211 lbs), skates well, has a good shot. But for a #4 overall draft pick, he put up 20 points in 65 games last year, and is on a pace for 16 points in 71 games this year (And a +/- of -22). Parayko is on a pace for more goals and points than he is, as a defenseman.
Here's The Hockey News' anaylsis:Parayko is, at worst, what he is now, a good. young, all-around second pairing defenseman, who plays 22-23 minutes a night and may still have top-pairing upside. Puljujarvi, at worst, is another Yakupov or Paajarvi. I really don't know what upside he still has. Berglund on a good year (20+ goals, around 50 points, sound 2-way play)? Mats Sundin as a winger?Owns outstanding size and terrific, game-breaking talent. Skates very well and owns a great release. Knows where to go in order to score goals. Can also be a physical presence. Is a great playmaker. Like most young players, he needs to improve his defensive-zone coverage. Also needs to be more game-to-game consistent in order to maximize production in the National Hockey League.
Do we trade a known player like Parayko for a roll of the dice?
Well, we tried that with with both Paajarvi AND Yakupov, thinking that a change of scenery would help them break out. They each fell flat in Edmonton, Saint Louis, AND on the next teams they went to after the Blues (Ottawa and Colorado, respectively). Maybe the 3rd time will be the charm with Puljujarvi?NHLTIM wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:23 pmWe don't know what's going on in Edmonton to be honest. Hall gets traded and wins the Hart trophy and granted he was always a decent player but the the last few years before the trade....he was just an above average player. There is something wrong with their player development. The whole thing needs to be gutted....seems like they are ruining kids.RAFritchey wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:00 pm <SNIP>
Do we trade a known player like Parayko for a roll of the dice?
I'm a gambler....I've seen enough from Puljujarvi that I'd be interested in a deal for him. Detroit wants a dman for Athanasiou....I'd be interested in that deal too. Obviously I'd much prefer Athanasiou. Hell...I'm still pissed we couldn't land Dylan Strome.....seeing him in that Hawks jersey....man that hurts.RAFritchey wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:44 pmWell, we tried that with with both Paajarvi AND Yakupov, thinking that a change of scenery would help them break out. They each fell flat in Edmonton, Saint Louis, AND on the next teams they went to after the Blues (Ottawa and Colorado, respectively). Maybe the 3rd time will be the charm with Puljujarvi?NHLTIM wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:23 pmWe don't know what's going on in Edmonton to be honest. Hall gets traded and wins the Hart trophy and granted he was always a decent player but the the last few years before the trade....he was just an above average player. There is something wrong with their player development. The whole thing needs to be gutted....seems like they are ruining kids.RAFritchey wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:00 pm <SNIP>
Do we trade a known player like Parayko for a roll of the dice?
I think it more likely that a Puljujarvi-Athanasiou based deal is in the works, though. Makes more sense for both teams.
The Blues pro scouting or lack of it has always irked me. That's one reason I'm so shocked they found Sundqvist.BillP. wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:16 pm Blues just don't think ahead and I'm worn out with this staff. Athanasiou was unsigned a couple years ago with Detroit and could of been scooped up. Stinkin Blues talk about speed and transition and they don't go after a guy like that. I don't get it.
what about the point totals thingy?SpacemanSpiff wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:33 pmStronger, faster, and heavier shot than Berglund. I think it's typical of some teams to see all of the physical attributes and just be enamored with that side of things.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:52 pm Puljujarvi reminds me of Berglund. but dumber, slower, and with lower point totals. All whie having higher expecations on him.
I know, it sucks that he fell off so hard.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:12 pmwhat about the point totals thingy?SpacemanSpiff wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:33 pmStronger, faster, and heavier shot than Berglund. I think it's typical of some teams to see all of the physical attributes and just be enamored with that side of things.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:52 pm Puljujarvi reminds me of Berglund. but dumber, slower, and with lower point totals. All whie having higher expecations on him.
In his third NHL season, Bergy played 81 games and had 52 points.
Jesee has played 39 games so far in his 3rd pro season and HAS NINE POINTS!!! NINE POINTS!!! That's one more point than Ty Rattie.
(Holy shit, Patrick Berglund had 52 points in his third pro season)
Some guys are late bloomers.....plus for me, the fact that he's an Edmonton Oiler gives him a clean slate for somewhere else. I'm not going to look at what he's done so far in Edmonton because it's easy to look at his stats produced so far and question him....I question that organization instead. I look at what he did against his peers in the WJC a few years ago and he was the most dominant player in the tourney hands down. Some of those peers that he was hands down better than just 3 years ago, are superstars in the NHL right now.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:12 pmwhat about the point totals thingy?SpacemanSpiff wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:33 pmStronger, faster, and heavier shot than Berglund. I think it's typical of some teams to see all of the physical attributes and just be enamored with that side of things.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:52 pm Puljujarvi reminds me of Berglund. but dumber, slower, and with lower point totals. All whie having higher expecations on him.
In his third NHL season, Bergy played 81 games and had 52 points.
Jesee has played 39 games so far in his 3rd pro season and HAS NINE POINTS!!! NINE POINTS!!! That's one more point than Ty Rattie.
(Holy shit, Patrick Berglund had 52 points in his third pro season)
But who is Dylan Strome producing with in Chicago? Is he playing primarily with Kane? Schmaltz went to Arizona and he was producing as well before getting hurt. I truly wonder if it's sometimes who they are around. Looking at when Fabbri came in, he primarily played with Stastny and Brouwer. Stastny had good offensive ability and Brouwer could clear some space for Fabbri to do his thing. I'm not saying you're wrong in regards to who could be a late bloomer, but as I said, I would also take into account who those players are typically playing with.NHLTIM wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:56 amSome guys are late bloomers.....plus for me, the fact that he's an Edmonton Oiler gives him a clean slate for somewhere else. I'm not going to look at what he's done so far in Edmonton because it's easy to look at his stats produced so far and question him....I question that organization instead. I look at what he did against his peers in the WJC a few years ago and he was the most dominant player in the tourney hands down. Some of those peers that he was hands down better than just 3 years ago, are superstars in the NHL right now.39hurricane wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:12 pmwhat about the point totals thingy?SpacemanSpiff wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:33 pm
Stronger, faster, and heavier shot than Berglund. I think it's typical of some teams to see all of the physical attributes and just be enamored with that side of things.
In his third NHL season, Bergy played 81 games and had 52 points.
Jesee has played 39 games so far in his 3rd pro season and HAS NINE POINTS!!! NINE POINTS!!! That's one more point than Ty Rattie.
(Holy shit, Patrick Berglund had 52 points in his third pro season)
Again...I'll go back to Dylan Strome. I think the entire world was ready to give up on him but if you watched him play in juniors or any of the tournaments the last few years, you could see his skill and how smart of a player he was....his biggest issue was his adjusting his skating at the NHL level. He's not doing anything in Arizona...yet he produces for them in the AHL. Then he comes back to Arizona and it's more of the same. He leaves Arizona and now has 21pts in 27 games for the Blackhawks. The Coyotes have a lot of talent yet they struggle in the NHL....i mean they are absolutely loaded. Just makes me think a lot times some of these players failing is on the organization. Look at Tampa....guys they draft in the later rounds come in an make an impact for them almost immediately. Regardless...because of what Puljijarvi has shown so far, if you trade for him, it's a gamble but it could very well pay off.
Ahh, gotcha.NHLTIM wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 11:32 am He’s been centering their 2nd line with Debrincat and Kahun.
Strome would have produced in Arizona if given a real opportunity. They sold on him too early.
I'm with on being frustrated with management, they just always come across as confused.BillP. wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:16 pm Blues just don't think ahead and I'm worn out with this staff. Athanasiou was unsigned a couple years ago with Detroit and could of been scooped up. Stinkin Blues talk about speed and transition and they don't go after a guy like that. I don't get it.
There's not a problem with it, that's how it's done....that's pretty much scouting 101. Jesse is only 20 years old....I still say he's most likely a late bloomer on the NHL level, or it's on the organization that drafted him. He hasn't lost any of the skills that he dominated with, nor did those players he dominated gain any new sets of skills...a lot of those guys were destined to be Superstars at the NHL level. It comes down to development, did the Oilers do something to hinder his growth? based on their track record, i'd say the odds are good that something just isn't right within that organization.RAFritchey wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:22 pm With Puljujarvi, one of the problems with looking at how players do as teens playing against their 'peers' is that it's sometimes hard to tell whether they're truly better, or just physiologically a little more developed, and their dominant performance is due to that instead of talent. It's hard to project whether they'll still be as dominant into their early- and mid-20's and beyond in the NHL, once their 'peers' have caught up in physical growth and development. That may be why 2-way defensemen and 'power forward' types take longer to develop: They still have a lot of physical growing and filling out to do even once they've reached the NHL, and that affects how they play the game.
As for Berglund, he always seemed capable of being at least a 20 goal, 40 point guy (his career average with the Blues was 20 goals and 18 assists per 82 games) who played a defensive system pretty well. IMHO, he was a decent middle-6 player who just never found a good synergy with any particular linemates (witness his lack of assists, especially for a center), and left you wanting more from him, especially in more 'clutch' situations. And he certainly wasn't worth 5 years @ $3.85 mil, IMHO. Then again, at least for this season, the AVERAGE NHL player salary is almost $3.5 mil ($79.5 mil salary cap divided by a 23 man roster), so maybe it really was 'market value' for a somewhat better than average player?
Definitely.....a lot of truth with what you said there for sure.SpacemanSpiff wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:35 pm For the longest time, the Detroit Red Wings were the epitome of player development. They drafted the players they felt fit their system, and had those certain attributes that they felt would develop into viable NHL'ers. They made their players put their time in at the AHL level and didn't rush players, but they didn't have to because they were successful at the NHL level.
The problem with the Oilers / Coyotes, etc - is they already are not good at the NHL level, so they rush these kids into the league, when sometimes, they need more seasoning. The kids start taking shortcuts because they're not seeing the type of individual and team success that they saw at lower levels, and it becomes a big catch-22 that they can't escape from.
Puljujarvi has traditionally been a man among boys at the junior level. He didn't have to worry about playing defence. He didn't have to worry about the subtle things an NHL'er has to do that he's not accustomed to. So, he gets moved up to the NHL team at 18 or 19 - and now, all of the defencemen can skate. They're more physical. And he makes mistakes. And get benched. And his confidence erodes slowly. If he went straight to the AHL for one entire year, instead of 20 games here, 15 games there, he gets to work on his game and his confidence.
And long term, he's probably a better player for it. Armstrong stated this - "The NHL is not a league you want to learn in." Entirely true, unless you're a generational player.
That's a good take. From a Blues perspective Kyrou clearly isn't ready. I hear people clamoring on Twitter for Kostin to come up but he's at least one season away.SpacemanSpiff wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:35 pm For the longest time, the Detroit Red Wings were the epitome of player development. They drafted the players they felt fit their system, and had those certain attributes that they felt would develop into viable NHL'ers. They made their players put their time in at the AHL level and didn't rush players, but they didn't have to because they were successful at the NHL level.
The problem with the Oilers / Coyotes, etc - is they already are not good at the NHL level, so they rush these kids into the league, when sometimes, they need more seasoning. The kids start taking shortcuts because they're not seeing the type of individual and team success that they saw at lower levels, and it becomes a big catch-22 that they can't escape from.
Puljujarvi has traditionally been a man among boys at the junior level. He didn't have to worry about playing defence. He didn't have to worry about the subtle things an NHL'er has to do that he's not accustomed to. So, he gets moved up to the NHL team at 18 or 19 - and now, all of the defencemen can skate. They're more physical. And he makes mistakes. And get benched. And his confidence erodes slowly. If he went straight to the AHL for one entire year, instead of 20 games here, 15 games there, he gets to work on his game and his confidence.
And long term, he's probably a better player for it. Armstrong stated this - "The NHL is not a league you want to learn in." Entirely true, unless you're a generational player.
But Kyrou is already proving it at the Ahl level. Basically a pt per gm player now.BluesSK wrote: Sat Jan 26, 2019 8:47 amThat's a good take. From a Blues perspective Kyrou clearly isn't ready. I hear people clamoring on Twitter for Kostin to come up but he's at least one season away.SpacemanSpiff wrote: Fri Jan 25, 2019 3:35 pm For the longest time, the Detroit Red Wings were the epitome of player development. They drafted the players they felt fit their system, and had those certain attributes that they felt would develop into viable NHL'ers. They made their players put their time in at the AHL level and didn't rush players, but they didn't have to because they were successful at the NHL level.
The problem with the Oilers / Coyotes, etc - is they already are not good at the NHL level, so they rush these kids into the league, when sometimes, they need more seasoning. The kids start taking shortcuts because they're not seeing the type of individual and team success that they saw at lower levels, and it becomes a big catch-22 that they can't escape from.
Puljujarvi has traditionally been a man among boys at the junior level. He didn't have to worry about playing defence. He didn't have to worry about the subtle things an NHL'er has to do that he's not accustomed to. So, he gets moved up to the NHL team at 18 or 19 - and now, all of the defencemen can skate. They're more physical. And he makes mistakes. And get benched. And his confidence erodes slowly. If he went straight to the AHL for one entire year, instead of 20 games here, 15 games there, he gets to work on his game and his confidence.
And long term, he's probably a better player for it. Armstrong stated this - "The NHL is not a league you want to learn in." Entirely true, unless you're a generational player.
Then fans get impatient when the Big League team falters and management feels pressured to bring kids up. The Blues have let way too much talent fall through the cracks with their shitty player development and their mismanagement at the minor pro level.
