What the heck did this guy do to fall so far off his game? One thing I don't get...it is obvious he is having a bad season, so why do the Blues keep playing him like he was still an All-Star, wouldn't it be a better idea to protect him...instead of giving him tough assignments, and top minutes? There is nothing saying he has to be the Blues number one d-men.

My guess is they feel he's so mentally fragile that if they make any move to move him down, he'll be even more worthless than he is now.

barnburner wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:47 pm My guess is they feel he's so mentally fragile that if they make any move to move him down, he'll be even more worthless than he is now.

That doesn't make any sense...if he was protected a little maybe he would get more confidence back and build from there...this is denial.

I think it's a combination of several things.

He's a new father.
He was presumably asked to waive his NTC to go to Calgary for Hamilton.
He's shouldering the captaincy.
He's trying to be a leader for the first time.

I think he's simply cracking under all of the pressure that he's placing on himself.

SpacemanSpiff wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:32 pm I think it's a combination of several things.

He's a new father.
He was presumably asked to waive his NTC to go to Calgary for Hamilton.
He's shouldering the captaincy.
He's trying to be a leader for the first time.

I think he's simply cracking under all of the pressure that he's placing on himself.

I'm not sure why anyone is putting any pressure on him. If you wanted to trade him...or get him to come along...give him fewer minutes and reduce his leadership role. If you want him to fail...and lower his value...keep throwing him to the wolves.

This was brought up at the Asylum today and it almost makes perfect sense. We know that there was a Blues player that refused to waive his NTC/NMC in a trade with Calgary on draft day. We also know that the player coming back in the deal was Dougie Hamilton, which would make it seem like Petro was the player that was asked to waive his NTC. Was he so shocked that the Blues would ask this when his wife was due to have triplets within a month that it affected his season, not to mention the entire locker room?
I don't know if that's how it went down but if you think about it, it makes complete sense.

CaptSMRT wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:04 pm

SpacemanSpiff wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:32 pm I think it's a combination of several things.

He's a new father.
He was presumably asked to waive his NTC to go to Calgary for Hamilton.
He's shouldering the captaincy.
He's trying to be a leader for the first time.

I think he's simply cracking under all of the pressure that he's placing on himself.

I'm not sure why anyone is putting any pressure on him. If you wanted to trade him...or get him to come along...give him fewer minutes and reduce his leadership role. If you want him to fail...and lower his value...keep throwing him to the wolves.

I said he is putting the pressure on himself.

The guy has been a rock for years. Now, his kids, his new family life, the possibility of the Blues trading him, the letter on his chest, it all adds up to an anvil on his shoulders and he's not the same player. I agree - something needs to be done in terms of him. But I also think part of it is himself - he's the one helping make this pressure worse.

NHLTIM wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:05 pm This was brought up at the Asylum today and it almost makes perfect sense. We know that there was a Blues player that refused to waive his NTC/NMC in a trade with Calgary on draft day. We also know that the player coming back in the deal was Dougie Hamilton, which would make it seem like Petro was the player that was asked to waive his NTC. Was he so shocked that the Blues would ask this when his wife was due to have triplets within a month that it affected his season, not to mention the entire locker room?
I don't know if that's how it went down but if you think about it, it makes complete sense.

To me Parayko was the guy in the Calgary deal with maybe Steen included and not waiving the NTC. The logic behind Petro absolutely makes sense, but there was just so much smoke around Parayko in the offseason that he makes sense to be the RHD in a Hamilton trade. Maybe Petro is hurt, maybe it's the triplets, maybe is the burden of the C, but whatever it is, I'm more than open to asking him where he'll take a trade to, then making it happen.

Dave's a mess wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:16 pm

NHLTIM wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 4:05 pm This was brought up at the Asylum today and it almost makes perfect sense. We know that there was a Blues player that refused to waive his NTC/NMC in a trade with Calgary on draft day. We also know that the player coming back in the deal was Dougie Hamilton, which would make it seem like Petro was the player that was asked to waive his NTC. Was he so shocked that the Blues would ask this when his wife was due to have triplets within a month that it affected his season, not to mention the entire locker room?
I don't know if that's how it went down but if you think about it, it makes complete sense.

To me Parayko was the guy in the Calgary deal with maybe Steen included and not waiving the NTC. The logic behind Petro absolutely makes sense, but there was just so much smoke around Parayko in the offseason that he makes sense to be the RHD in a Hamilton trade. Maybe Petro is hurt, maybe it's the triplets, maybe is the burden of the C, but whatever it is, I'm more than open to asking him where he'll take a trade to, then making it happen.

It's possible....who knows. I'm still having trouble coming to grips that Hamilton who's known to be an issue in the locker room is a guy that the Blues are very interested in. John Shannon mentioned after that trade with Carolina went down that the Flames would go out for a team lunch every day and Hamilton never went!

I agree with Dave. I think Army was still in love with Petro last off season. And I think his love for Petro was still strong early this year. Finally, I would have to think that by now, Army's love for Petro is definitely being tested. If this doesn't break the marriage, nothing will.

I think part of it is the entire D-corps.

Parayko and Edmundson are still trying to put their 'all-around' games together, and neither is playing like a bona-fide top-pairing guy. Good middle pairing guys, IMHO, with potential to improve still, but not there yet.

Dunn is still playing protected minutes in mostly offensive situations.

Bouwmeester was flat-out AWFUL for the first part of the season (As much as I disparaged him early-on, he is playing much more solidly now, defensively at least).

Bortuzzo and Gunnarsson have both been injured for significant parts of the season.

Schmaltz is far more 'suspect' than 'prospect' at this point.

Even Pietrangelo has missed almost a dozen games with injury this year.

Some of Pietrangelo's ice time, particularly on special teams, has been redistributed among the others (Dunn is getting a lot of offensive and PP time, Bortuzzo more PK time, etc.), but so far, given the injuries and Parayko and Edmundson both floundering a bit, we really haven't had a good 5-on-5 option to take even more ice time away from him, even as bad as he's been this season.

CaptSMRT wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:29 pm What the heck did this guy do to fall so far off his game? One thing I don't get...it is obvious he is having a bad season, so why do the Blues keep playing him like he was still an All-Star, wouldn't it be a better idea to protect him...instead of giving him tough assignments, and top minutes? There is nothing saying he has to be the Blues number one d-men.

I think there's 6.7 million reasons why :/

Ozzies09tc wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:11 pm

CaptSMRT wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:29 pm What the heck did this guy do to fall so far off his game? One thing I don't get...it is obvious he is having a bad season, so why do the Blues keep playing him like he was still an All-Star, wouldn't it be a better idea to protect him...instead of giving him tough assignments, and top minutes? There is nothing saying he has to be the Blues number one d-men.

I think there's 6.7 million reasons why :/

I think what he means was that maybe he needs less tough assignments, in order to help with his confidence and his overall game?

No trade clauses have hurt this team. Why is it that when STL teams are trying to attract FAs no one wants to come to STL, but when they're looking to ship people out no one wants to leave? This nightmare just won't end.

As for Petro's psyche, I can't imagine spending some time in the press box could be any more demoralizing than finding yourself standing there 10 feet from the net with your dick in your hand every time the other team scores. He has to feel like shit right now. Maybe benching him would piss him off. That can't be a bad thing.

SpacemanSpiff wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:50 pm

Ozzies09tc wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:11 pm

CaptSMRT wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:29 pm What the heck did this guy do to fall so far off his game? One thing I don't get...it is obvious he is having a bad season, so why do the Blues keep playing him like he was still an All-Star, wouldn't it be a better idea to protect him...instead of giving him tough assignments, and top minutes? There is nothing saying he has to be the Blues number one d-men.

I think there's 6.7 million reasons why :/

I think what he means was that maybe he needs less tough assignments, in order to help with his confidence and his overall game?

Ya i think berube's hands are tied due to the contract armstrong signed with petro :/

Im the resident armstrong hater

insideout wrote: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:30 pm No trade clauses have hurt this team. Why is it that when STL teams are trying to attract FAs no one wants to come to STL, but when they're looking to ship people out no one wants to leave? This nightmare just won't end.

As for Petro's psyche, I can't imagine spending some time in the press box could be any more demoralizing than finding yourself standing there 10 feet from the net with your dick in your hand every time the other team scores. He has to feel like shit right now. Maybe benching him would piss him off. That can't be a bad thing.

Benching him would make his tears match that of his triplets' at home.

Not for nothing but tanks precipitous fall from grace came right around when he became a father. When you make more money than God hockey isn't your first priority. And if that's the reason then fuck it.

If he really is folding under the pressure of everything going on, then I think that is Exhibit A in the case for him not to be captain. Good captains rise to the occasion, make game changing plays in the most critical times, and motivate the team. They do not crumble under pressure.

You can't hide Pietrangelo having a bad year. However, I don't think he's faltering under pressure. Triplets, new forwards, his 3rd coach in 3 years, a new defensive coach for the 3rd time in 3 years, and the first bad season of his career are all compounding issues but who the leadership of the team is woulnd't have changed the outcome of this season. Pietrangelo being the captain or not wouldn't change this team. Giving the C to O'Reilly or anyone else and trading Pietrangelo probably wouldn't galvanize this team into anything special. Pietrangelo and his leadership aren't the problem with this team. They are far from it. I know he struggled the last game, but look at this season as a whole. There has been so much turmoil, no one is having a consistent season. Also, where was this wilting under pressure during the playoffs those 6 years when he was arguably the best player on the ice for all of them and wearing an A for most? I really don't understand this narrative that he's the one faltering. Maybe...just maybe, he's being undermined by a bitter teammate?

This team needs a culture change in a bad way and it starts with the coach and staff, and arguably the GM. Hitch might have been a bear and had a boring system, but it was a winning system. His assistants new how to win, Shaw, Muller, Bennett, etc. That's all gone now. Yeo and Berube were students of Hitch but didn't have his knack for motivating players, even if those players hated him. Armstrong needs to find a coach that can inspire and lead these players again. He's had one miscue with Yeo hiring. Giving Berube the interim seemed only natural and a longer coaching search needing to be conducted instead of the rushed ham job that was Hitch and Yeo as coach in waiting. If the Blues get a coach who can reach the players again, I think you'll see a huge turn around, especially from some of the core. Also, that new coach has to have a strategy that aligns with the types of players this team has. The other part of the equation is the continued evolving of the roster. You don't just trade off pieces of your core thinking a shakeup will fix the team. If you're giving up on Tarasenko or Pietrangelo, then you need to be sure the guys coming in to replace them are a perfect fit and can play the role the others are vacating because as of right now, Parayko is close but not ready to replace 27 and no one on this roster can replace 91 when he's fully healthy.

As far as the Calgary trade, I have a sneaking suspicion it was Steen and not Pietrangelo. Armstrong seemed dead set on moving many of the struggling veteran forwards off this team, and you can argue Steen shouldn't be among them but I would bet he was the one who wouldn't waive. I couldn't stand the Steen extension. I still can't stand when he gets talked up. The dude is a cancer, a problem here, and a giant baby if the rumors are to be believed. To this day, I'm sad Armstrong signed that extension with him. If Steen isn't traded or off this roster before 91, 27, or practically anyone not named Bouw, Gunnarsson, or Maroon, then I'll probably stop being a Blues fan until Armstrong is gone.

I know I sound crazy and obsessive on Steen, but I never understood the love affair with this guy, but he's one of those "blue collar, hard-working, less skilled" athletes that St. Louis seems to love.

Not many will agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that we have the right guy behind the bench now. He's not flashy, but to me at least, his moves usually have common sense behind them. He doesn't panic, and from everything I've heard, these players really respect Berube because he is up front with everything, and doesn't bs them. I'm hard pressed to see what someone like Q could do better. I'm pretty sure Berube could have won 3 Cups with those Chicago teams. Q is a good coach, but he's no miracle worker.

Again, this is just my opinion, but from my perspective, Petro's failures started long before he became a father. His history since becoming a starter, is that he struggles against physical teams, and cannot seem to stay focused for an entire game. If Army can only make one move this offseason, it should be to get rid of Petro.

barnburner wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:41 am Not many will agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that we have the right guy behind the bench now. He's not flashy, but to me at least, his moves usually have common sense behind them. He doesn't panic, and from everything I've heard, these players really respect Berube because he is up front with everything, and doesn't bs them. I'm hard pressed to see what someone like Q could do better. I'm pretty sure Berube could have won 3 Cups with those Chicago teams. Q is a good coach, but he's no miracle worker.

Again, this is just my opinion, but from my perspective, Petro's failures started long before he became a father. His history since becoming a starter, is that he struggles against physical teams, and cannot seem to stay focused for an entire game. If Army can only make one move this offseason, it should be to get rid of Petro.

What makes you say he falters against physical teams? San Jose, Dallas, Minnesota (2x), Nashville, LA (2x), and Chicago (2x) all gave Petro a rough ride during the playoff series and he was still, arguably, the best player on the ice for those series except for the sweep by LA in which they KNEW to take him out of the game. I guess I'm curious, besides Benn sitting on him, what can you really point to where he folded because of teams playing physical against him? I guess I don't see it.

wannabebluesplayer wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:46 am

barnburner wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:41 am Not many will agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that we have the right guy behind the bench now. He's not flashy, but to me at least, his moves usually have common sense behind them. He doesn't panic, and from everything I've heard, these players really respect Berube because he is up front with everything, and doesn't bs them. I'm hard pressed to see what someone like Q could do better. I'm pretty sure Berube could have won 3 Cups with those Chicago teams. Q is a good coach, but he's no miracle worker.

Again, this is just my opinion, but from my perspective, Petro's failures started long before he became a father. His history since becoming a starter, is that he struggles against physical teams, and cannot seem to stay focused for an entire game. If Army can only make one move this offseason, it should be to get rid of Petro.

What makes you say he falters against physical teams? San Jose, Dallas, Minnesota (2x), Nashville, LA (2x), and Chicago (2x) all gave Petro a rough ride during the playoff series and he was still, arguably, the best player on the ice for those series except for the sweep by LA in which they KNEW to take him out of the game. I guess I'm curious, besides Benn sitting on him, what can you really point to where he folded because of teams playing physical against him? I guess I don't see it.

Like I said, that's the way I see it. I have to disagree about Petro being the best player on the ice in those series. Not even close. I can't cite game by game performances, but he's not even on the same hemisphere as a guy like Dowdy. Jmo.

wannabebluesplayer wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:46 am

barnburner wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:41 am Not many will agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that we have the right guy behind the bench now. He's not flashy, but to me at least, his moves usually have common sense behind them. He doesn't panic, and from everything I've heard, these players really respect Berube because he is up front with everything, and doesn't bs them. I'm hard pressed to see what someone like Q could do better. I'm pretty sure Berube could have won 3 Cups with those Chicago teams. Q is a good coach, but he's no miracle worker.

Again, this is just my opinion, but from my perspective, Petro's failures started long before he became a father. His history since becoming a starter, is that he struggles against physical teams, and cannot seem to stay focused for an entire game. If Army can only make one move this offseason, it should be to get rid of Petro.

What makes you say he falters against physical teams? San Jose, Dallas, Minnesota (2x), Nashville, LA (2x), and Chicago (2x) all gave Petro a rough ride during the playoff series and he was still, arguably, the best player on the ice for those series except for the sweep by LA in which they KNEW to take him out of the game. I guess I'm curious, besides Benn sitting on him, what can you really point to where he folded because of teams playing physical against him? I guess I don't see it.

He was ok....was he the best player...I don't know about that. In those playoff series where we got knocked out in the first round...he didn't do anything besides eat minutes. He sure as heck didn't make a difference on the scoreboard. He's never been able to be that difference maker that we need. He played ok the first two rounds the year we went to the conf final and then we saw real difference maker in Brent Burns when they played San Jose, The same thing against Nashville....he was outplayed by Subban and little Ryan Ellis who looks like he stepped out of the Shire in a JR Tolkien novel.
That's my issue with Petro....he's never been able to raise his game to be that guy that could take us to the next level.

I think Berube is fine for now, but in the offseason you absolutley have to find the best fit you can. I'm sure Armstrong is doing a great deal of searching right now, but he has to nail this hire. Q would be great, but there are lots of other avenues that could work. I just don't want to see a non-Q retread. The idea of a Vigneault or Bylsma type bums me out.

barnburner wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:52 am

wannabebluesplayer wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:46 am

barnburner wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:41 am Not many will agree with me, but I'm of the opinion that we have the right guy behind the bench now. He's not flashy, but to me at least, his moves usually have common sense behind them. He doesn't panic, and from everything I've heard, these players really respect Berube because he is up front with everything, and doesn't bs them. I'm hard pressed to see what someone like Q could do better. I'm pretty sure Berube could have won 3 Cups with those Chicago teams. Q is a good coach, but he's no miracle worker.

Again, this is just my opinion, but from my perspective, Petro's failures started long before he became a father. His history since becoming a starter, is that he struggles against physical teams, and cannot seem to stay focused for an entire game. If Army can only make one move this offseason, it should be to get rid of Petro.

What makes you say he falters against physical teams? San Jose, Dallas, Minnesota (2x), Nashville, LA (2x), and Chicago (2x) all gave Petro a rough ride during the playoff series and he was still, arguably, the best player on the ice for those series except for the sweep by LA in which they KNEW to take him out of the game. I guess I'm curious, besides Benn sitting on him, what can you really point to where he folded because of teams playing physical against him? I guess I don't see it.

Like I said, that's the way I see it. I have to disagree about Petro being the best player on the ice in those series. Not even close. I can't cite game by game performances, but he's not even on the same hemisphere as a guy like Dowdy. Jmo.

It was as always with Petro...it was media driven. If you even go back to the game on the road against Detroit this year, KMOX interviewed Kris Draper before the game and all he talked about was how good Pietrangelo is and how he was the key? Huh? Did Kris Draper watch any Blues games at all this year? I honestly think that's just the league default statement for him and I think management and fans run with that kind of stuff and don't put any more thought into it.