Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#203
Doug Glatt wrote:
T.C. wrote:
Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote:
tenor.gif
fantastic.

i don't know how you can judge army on what happens in the post season. like the president's trophy winning blues in 1999-2000 getting swept in the first round - was that a poorly-assembled team? if the Cup was won on paper, we wouldn't need to play the games, and we certainly wouldn't have a story like VGK.
It is a results driven league. Look at Ovie. If he never won the cup, there would be a stain on his legacy. People always talked about how he could never win the cup. It isn't fair, but it is how the world works.
Far too many people think they know the formula for winning the Cup and every year they are proven wrong.

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#204
CaptSMRT wrote:
Doug Glatt wrote:
T.C. wrote: fantastic.

i don't know how you can judge army on what happens in the post season. like the president's trophy winning blues in 1999-2000 getting swept in the first round - was that a poorly-assembled team? if the Cup was won on paper, we wouldn't need to play the games, and we certainly wouldn't have a story like VGK.
It is a results driven league. Look at Ovie. If he never won the cup, there would be a stain on his legacy. People always talked about how he could never win the cup. It isn't fair, but it is how the world works.
Far too many people think they know the formula for winning the Cup and every year they are proven wrong.
So true.

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#205
bradleygt89 wrote:
stlblues1226 wrote:Here are some of my favorites from the HFBoards link:
Sigh, traded a dollar for 2 nickels, 2 pennies, and a Canadian penny. Oh, and no defensemen.

Jesus ****ing christ. On the day Toronto signs one of the best players in the league, you trade ROR for a bag of ****. This team is ****ed.

... ugh
ROR for depth and lotto tickets
(I was a big Tage Thompson booster in his draft year.... honestly has one of the best one timers I’ve ever seen... but slow as molasses)

I was just hating on Doug Armstrong not even an hour ago and now I'm blown away. Okay Doug, you got my attention.

Where’s the speed Lebowski? Where’s the speed?
4 ****ing years of Berglund? W in t absolute f?

Jesus h Christ that return is awful
This is like listing your house on a "make me move" offer and trading it for a used Dodge neon and a buy one get one colonoscopy coupon . We took two salary dumps, a b prospect, and two picks that won't help us before my 40th. **** .

There is a hilarious amount of stupid wasted cap space on this roster rightnow...

I mean we took money back and still couldn't get Kyrou or Thomas. What kind of incompetent GM pulls that off?

At this point, the best thing I can say is somehow I’ve managed not to throw my phone at anything.

The only plus is that the takes here are slightly better than Facebook takes

Living in the midwest, I see a ton of Blues games. Berglund and Sobotka are not cap dumps. They are two heart and soul guys that bust ass every shift. This is all about the culture change. We are a better team today than we were 24 hours ago.
And I stopped at around page 16 or so. Pretty entertaining.
Heart and soul, I fell in love with you
Heart and soul, the way a fool would do, madly
Because you held me tight
And stole a kiss in the night

Heart and soul, I begged to be adored
Lost control, and tumbled overboard, gladly
That magic night we kissed
There in the moon mist

Oh! but your lips were thrilling, much too thrilling
Never before were mine so strangely willing



Read more: Hoagy Carmichael - Heart And Soul Lyrics | MetroLyrics
i think Huey Lewis is more appropriate for these two: "...(s)he's hot & cold..."

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#206
T.C. wrote:fantastic.

i don't know how you can judge army on what happens in the post season. like the president's trophy winning blues in 1999-2000 getting swept in the first round - was that a poorly-assembled team? if the Cup was won on paper, we wouldn't need to play the games, and we certainly wouldn't have a story like VGK.
I think it's pretty easy to judge him on what happens in the postseason, especially since he's been fully accountable for the rosters and every contract handed out to a guy on a Blues roster for about 5 years now.

1999-2000 was a single season. That's not representative of anything when viewed on its own. For every team who went in with 100+ points and got knocked off in the 1st round, there were 10 others who went in and waltzed through the opening two rounds. It would be like pointing to the 1991 North Stars and saying, "just get into the playoffs with a shitty record, then unleash the magic" ignoring that for every one of those, there had been (and would be) 25 other teams that went into the playoffs with as many as 78 points and got thrashed in the opening round.

When you look at 5 seasons, 7 seasons, 10 seasons, ... you start to accumulate a depth of knowledge and can build a more complete picture. Yeah, there's an element of luck involved in getting to the Finals and winning the Cup, but when you see the same results play out time and time again you have to start asking yourself what the cause is.

Army? He's had 13 full seasons between Dallas and St. Louis. His teams are a combined 548-295-107, averaging 103.6 points per 82 games. Throw out the 2010-11 season (his first here) and it's 510-262-96, for 105.4 points per 82 games. They're great in the regular season, which is good enough to get you into the playoffs and get you home ice advantage for a couple series or more.

Those teams in the postseason? Those teams have had home ice advantage in 11 of the 15 series they've played in; they've won exactly three (3) of the 11. Overall, they're 5-10 in series played and 37-50 in games played. With the Blues? It's 2-6 in series starting with home ice advantage (12-12 in home games in those series), 18-28 in all games in series holding home ice advantage, 4-6 in series overall, and 26-38 in games played.

The oft-maligned Larry Pleau era from 1997-98 to 2003-04? Those Blues teams had home ice exactly four (4) times, but went 3-1 in those series (the loss noted above) going 15-7 in games played in series with home ice advantage and 8-4 in the home games. They had an overall series record of 5-7, the game record was 33-34. That's more wins with home ice advantage than Army's teams here have scraped together in twice as many attempts. It's also a better game win percentage than Army's teams here.

The Pleau era teams? Lost to the eventual champions 4 times. The Army era teams? Have fallen to the eventual champions exactly once. Home games in the Pleau era? The Blues were 18-14. Home games in the Army era? They're 14-15. Want another piece of history? Army's squads from 2013-2015 were the second in NHL history to put up (or be on pace to put up) three consecutive 100 points in a season and not make it out of the 1st round. (The other was New Jersey, 2006-08 but they at least had a Cup from 2003 to fall back on.) The squads from 2012-15 are the first to put up (or be on pace to put up) four consecutive 100-point seasons and not make it to at least the Conference Finals in any of those season.

You can at least point to the 90s-00s squads and say, "you know what, they didn't win but they generally fell to the best team in the postseason." You can't say that about any of Army's teams save the '12 team (unless you want to count Nashville getting to the Finals in '16 and then go back to Anaheim pulling the upset and getting to the Finals in '03 - both of which coincidentally beat an Armstrong-built team that had home ice advantage to start the series - and then start dragging in "oh, TEAM made the conference finals). However you break it down, Army's teams here have been superior to Pleau's teams in the regular season but have been definitively inferior in the postseason - and it's a pattern that extends back to Dallas and across 13 full seasons.

What's the common thread? It's not the players. It's not the coaches. It's not even the owners or the franchise. It's one (1) guy who's been tasked with building teams to go compete in the postseason, and who has a growing record of being unable to do so, but who continues to get wild acclaim for winning trade after trade - something that you would think eventually results in a better team that actually does something in the postseason besides chronically underachieve against lesser teams.

Can he redeem himself? Sure, he could. But if 2-3 years from now this team is still doing 105-point seasons and quick exits, some of you need to start asking whether the current GM is really the right guy to build a roster that can win deep in the postseason. Thus far, all signs are pointing to "no - I'm making it up as I go and hoping for some luck along the way as I try and cover my ass and just keep looking good."

OK, my rant is over. See you all at some point during training camp.

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#207
We may not have lost to the best team which won the Final, but we did lose to several WC championship teams: SJ, Nashville.

Besides the Kings, I thought the Hawks beat us in route to a Cup?

And if winning the Cup and playoffs is your judgement, even with all those stats you threw out, let's put them in context vs his competition, and I'd bet he's in the to 5-10 of all GMs in that time.

Lastly, sure DA is accountable, but he's also been proactive in adjusting his roster to find the best team, for both regular and post season.

Final: DA ain't perfect and deserves some criticism. But to act like he's more responsible than the players on the ice who don't live up to their potential, I'd say more falls on the players, then the coaching, then the GM.

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#208
bradleygt89 wrote:We may not have lost to the best team which won the Final, but we did lose to several WC championship teams: SJ, Nashville.

Besides the Kings, I thought the Hawks beat us in route to a Cup?

And if winning the Cup and playoffs is your judgement, even with all those stats you threw out, let's put them in context vs his competition, and I'd bet he's in the to 5-10 of all GMs in that time.

Lastly, sure DA is accountable, but he's also been proactive in adjusting his roster to find the best team, for both regular and post season.

Final: DA ain't perfect and deserves some criticism. But to act like he's more responsible than the players on the ice who don't live up to their potential, I'd say more falls on the players, then the coaching, then the GM.
If you're pointing fingers, underperforming players = GM. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's bad luck or bad fortune, sometimes it's injuries, sometimes it's ownership not providing necessary support. But I don't understand how it can be on underperforming players but not the person in charge of personnel. Particularly over multiple seasons.... why are players who don't live up to their potential being brought back? The only excuse for not moving a player who doesn't live up to his potential is being stuck with a bad contract, which again is on the GM. If it's a matter of not having the resources to get the players you need or a matter of not winning the McDavid, Crosby,Ovechkin et al lottery, then you could call it bad fortune and say it's not Army's fault. That would be a reasonable argument. But if it's a matter talented players who just can't put it together, that's GM all the way.
“We’re here for a fucking reason, ‘cause we’re a fucking good hockey team, and we’re going to fucking come home with the Cup here tonight. Le’ts fucking go. Sunny, Bo, Perry, Binner, let’s go.”
- Chief, June 12, 2019

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#209
insideout wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:We may not have lost to the best team which won the Final, but we did lose to several WC championship teams: SJ, Nashville.

Besides the Kings, I thought the Hawks beat us in route to a Cup?

And if winning the Cup and playoffs is your judgement, even with all those stats you threw out, let's put them in context vs his competition, and I'd bet he's in the to 5-10 of all GMs in that time.

Lastly, sure DA is accountable, but he's also been proactive in adjusting his roster to find the best team, for both regular and post season.

Final: DA ain't perfect and deserves some criticism. But to act like he's more responsible than the players on the ice who don't live up to their potential, I'd say more falls on the players, then the coaching, then the GM.
If you're pointing fingers, underperforming players = GM. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's bad luck or bad fortune, sometimes it's injuries, sometimes it's ownership not providing necessary support. But I don't understand how it can be on underperforming players but not the person in charge of personnel. Particularly over multiple seasons.... why are players who don't live up to their potential being brought back? The only excuse for not moving a player who doesn't live up to his potential is being stuck with a bad contract, which again is on the GM. If it's a matter of not having the resources to get the players you need or a matter of not winning the McDavid, Crosby,Ovechkin et al lottery, then you could call it bad fortune and say it's not Army's fault. That would be a reasonable argument. But if it's a matter talented players who just can't put it together, that's GM all the way.
This argument completely discards the draft. The Pens and the Hawks rode very high draft picks in Crosby Malkin, Toews, Kane, all the way to multiple championships.

Is part of a great GM's job to finish last 5 years in a row and build a dyn.... Oh shit sorry Edmonton.

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#210
39hurricane wrote:
insideout wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:We may not have lost to the best team which won the Final, but we did lose to several WC championship teams: SJ, Nashville.

Besides the Kings, I thought the Hawks beat us in route to a Cup?

And if winning the Cup and playoffs is your judgement, even with all those stats you threw out, let's put them in context vs his competition, and I'd bet he's in the to 5-10 of all GMs in that time.

Lastly, sure DA is accountable, but he's also been proactive in adjusting his roster to find the best team, for both regular and post season.

Final: DA ain't perfect and deserves some criticism. But to act like he's more responsible than the players on the ice who don't live up to their potential, I'd say more falls on the players, then the coaching, then the GM.
If you're pointing fingers, underperforming players = GM. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's bad luck or bad fortune, sometimes it's injuries, sometimes it's ownership not providing necessary support. But I don't understand how it can be on underperforming players but not the person in charge of personnel. Particularly over multiple seasons.... why are players who don't live up to their potential being brought back? The only excuse for not moving a player who doesn't live up to his potential is being stuck with a bad contract, which again is on the GM. If it's a matter of not having the resources to get the players you need or a matter of not winning the McDavid, Crosby,Ovechkin et al lottery, then you could call it bad fortune and say it's not Army's fault. That would be a reasonable argument. But if it's a matter talented players who just can't put it together, that's GM all the way.
This argument completely discards the draft. The Pens and the Hawks rode very high draft picks in Crosby Malkin, Toews, Kane, all the way to multiple championships.
No it doesn't. See bolded above.
“We’re here for a fucking reason, ‘cause we’re a fucking good hockey team, and we’re going to fucking come home with the Cup here tonight. Le’ts fucking go. Sunny, Bo, Perry, Binner, let’s go.”
- Chief, June 12, 2019

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#211
I'm reading Ryan Kennedy's article on the Hockey News about Botterill and he's impressed with the return he got on the STL deal. Says Buffalo also got Sheary and Botterill has the Sabres on the right track.

I really don't see why all the love for the Buffalo deal. They got a couple picks and Tage Thompson is still 2 to 3 years away from developing into something, and that is to be determined.

Sabres are still a reclamation project but with Eichel and Dahlin, I'd say Botterill better have something real good cooking in 3 years.

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#212
Piece on The Athletic from the Sabres side of the ROR trade. He also jumps into some advance stats that show how how unimpactful Berglund and more so Sobotka are.

"When​ the news came down​ that Ryan​ O’Reilly​ had been​ traded, I was very interested​ to​ see the​ return.​ The​​ rumored big name prospects (Jordan Kyrou, Robert Thomas, second and 13th in the OHL in primary points per game respectively) were not coming to Buffalo. Neither was Robby Fabbri, who had some stellar production early on but who also has had two knee injuries. He could have come cheaply and with much more potential than either Vladimir Sobotka or Patrik Berglund, who ended up being part of the deal.

The entire return was merited a “meh” reaction. It’s akin to trading three guys from your bench to get a stud player in fantasy sports; it’s a couple of dimes and nickels for a dollar. Maybe Tage Thompson is a quarter."

https://theathletic.com/425632/2018/07/ ... a-or-both/
Just a Klim Kostin fan account

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#213
Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote:Piece on The Athletic from the Sabres side of the ROR trade. He also jumps into some advance stats that show how how unimpactful Berglund and more so Sobotka are.

"When​ the news came down​ that Ryan​ O’Reilly​ had been​ traded, I was very interested​ to​ see the​ return.​ The​​ rumored big name prospects (Jordan Kyrou, Robert Thomas, second and 13th in the OHL in primary points per game respectively) were not coming to Buffalo. Neither was Robby Fabbri, who had some stellar production early on but who also has had two knee injuries. He could have come cheaply and with much more potential than either Vladimir Sobotka or Patrik Berglund, who ended up being part of the deal.

The entire return was merited a “meh” reaction. It’s akin to trading three guys from your bench to get a stud player in fantasy sports; it’s a couple of dimes and nickels for a dollar. Maybe Tage Thompson is a quarter."

https://theathletic.com/425632/2018/07/ ... a-or-both/
Boy, that was a fun read for a Blues fan. To further your summary, Berglund is only getting worse and should probably only be counted on in a defensive role. Sobotka is just awful, and hopefully the Sabres can flip him at the deadline. Author argued that including those two in the trade took the trade from "meh" to "bad" from a Sabres perspective. At least they've got Buffalo wings!
...but whatever, the Blues won the Cup!!!!!

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#214
insideout wrote:
39hurricane wrote:
insideout wrote:
If you're pointing fingers, underperforming players = GM. Sometimes it's coaching, sometimes it's bad luck or bad fortune, sometimes it's injuries, sometimes it's ownership not providing necessary support. But I don't understand how it can be on underperforming players but not the person in charge of personnel. Particularly over multiple seasons.... why are players who don't live up to their potential being brought back? The only excuse for not moving a player who doesn't live up to his potential is being stuck with a bad contract, which again is on the GM. If it's a matter of not having the resources to get the players you need or a matter of not winning the McDavid, Crosby,Ovechkin et al lottery, then you could call it bad fortune and say it's not Army's fault. That would be a reasonable argument. But if it's a matter talented players who just can't put it together, that's GM all the way.
This argument completely discards the draft. The Pens and the Hawks rode very high draft picks in Crosby Malkin, Toews, Kane, all the way to multiple championships.
No it doesn't. See bolded above.
So you think Army should tank the team 5 or 6 years in a row for the high draft picks?

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#215
39hurricane wrote:
insideout wrote:
39hurricane wrote:
This argument completely discards the draft. The Pens and the Hawks rode very high draft picks in Crosby Malkin, Toews, Kane, all the way to multiple championships.
No it doesn't. See bolded above.
So you think Army should tank the team 5 or 6 years in a row for the high draft picks?
No, I'm just pointing out that my argument does not discard the draft.
“We’re here for a fucking reason, ‘cause we’re a fucking good hockey team, and we’re going to fucking come home with the Cup here tonight. Le’ts fucking go. Sunny, Bo, Perry, Binner, let’s go.”
- Chief, June 12, 2019

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#216
Evan Sporer goes pretty in-depth on why he thinks ROR will fix the Blues PP woes and possibly be a top PP unit: https://theathletic.com/448966/2018/08/ ... ower-play/

A super good read for the hockey nerds that want to do the deep dive with charts, pictures, videos.

Here's a couple of tidbits.

O’Reilly won 210 power-play faceoffs last season, most in the NHL. Of all skaters who took at least 100 power-play faceoffs, he had the seventh-best winning percentage at 61.8-percent. Entries are emphasized in this phase of the game, and considering it begins with an offensive zone start and a chance to immediately gain possession, it’s one of the few areas where faceoffs actually matter. Schenn, who took the majority of the faceoffs for PP1, won 102 draws and lost 99. Schwartz went 8-8, Sobotka 12-12 and Steen 4-5. So power-play faceoffs for the Blues’ top unit were essentially a coin flip.

In terms of generating shot volume on the power play, St. Louis was 25th in the NHL last season, averaging 98.83 attempts per 60 minutes of power-play time. Comparatively, the Sabres with O’Reilly on the ice averaged more than 116 attempts per 60 minutes, the highest of any Buffalo skater.
Just a Klim Kostin fan account

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#217
Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote:Evan Sporer goes pretty in-depth on why he thinks ROR will fix the Blues PP woes and possibly be a top PP unit: https://theathletic.com/448966/2018/08/ ... ower-play/

A super good read for the hockey nerds that want to do the deep dive with charts, pictures, videos.

Here's a couple of tidbits.

O’Reilly won 210 power-play faceoffs last season, most in the NHL. Of all skaters who took at least 100 power-play faceoffs, he had the seventh-best winning percentage at 61.8-percent. Entries are emphasized in this phase of the game, and considering it begins with an offensive zone start and a chance to immediately gain possession, it’s one of the few areas where faceoffs actually matter. Schenn, who took the majority of the faceoffs for PP1, won 102 draws and lost 99. Schwartz went 8-8, Sobotka 12-12 and Steen 4-5. So power-play faceoffs for the Blues’ top unit were essentially a coin flip.

In terms of generating shot volume on the power play, St. Louis was 25th in the NHL last season, averaging 98.83 attempts per 60 minutes of power-play time. Comparatively, the Sabres with O’Reilly on the ice averaged more than 116 attempts per 60 minutes, the highest of any Buffalo skater.
O'Reilly can definitely help the PP in a big way but most of that is going to fall on Yeo and the coaches. They need to overhaul it.
St. Louis Blues 2019 Stanley Cup Champs!

"Suck a dick Johansen"

"Official Sponsor of the Legend....Jeremy Roenick"

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#219
NHLTIM wrote:
Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote:Evan Sporer goes pretty in-depth on why he thinks ROR will fix the Blues PP woes and possibly be a top PP unit: https://theathletic.com/448966/2018/08/ ... ower-play/

A super good read for the hockey nerds that want to do the deep dive with charts, pictures, videos.

Here's a couple of tidbits.

O’Reilly won 210 power-play faceoffs last season, most in the NHL. Of all skaters who took at least 100 power-play faceoffs, he had the seventh-best winning percentage at 61.8-percent. Entries are emphasized in this phase of the game, and considering it begins with an offensive zone start and a chance to immediately gain possession, it’s one of the few areas where faceoffs actually matter. Schenn, who took the majority of the faceoffs for PP1, won 102 draws and lost 99. Schwartz went 8-8, Sobotka 12-12 and Steen 4-5. So power-play faceoffs for the Blues’ top unit were essentially a coin flip.

In terms of generating shot volume on the power play, St. Louis was 25th in the NHL last season, averaging 98.83 attempts per 60 minutes of power-play time. Comparatively, the Sabres with O’Reilly on the ice averaged more than 116 attempts per 60 minutes, the highest of any Buffalo skater.
O'Reilly can definitely help the PP in a big way but most of that is going to fall on Yeo and the coaches. They need to overhaul it.
Yeo has failed miserably on the PP throughout his career. I hope he at least has the sense to put it in the hands of the right person(s).
“We’re here for a fucking reason, ‘cause we’re a fucking good hockey team, and we’re going to fucking come home with the Cup here tonight. Le’ts fucking go. Sunny, Bo, Perry, Binner, let’s go.”
- Chief, June 12, 2019

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#221
Dread_Pirate_Westley wrote:The Blues were basically 50% on faceoffs on the PP. You can't get any set plays, you can't get any quick chances doing that.

The article also touches on how they did a bad job of funneling pucks to Tarasenko on the PP. Which could explain his dip in numbers and the bad PP as well.
If this power play stinks, the leash will be very short on Yeo. This team must win and win now.

Re: Confirmed: Blues Trade for ROR

#222
T.C. wrote:
bradleygt89 wrote:
stlblues1226 wrote:Here are some of my favorites from the HFBoards link:



And I stopped at around page 16 or so. Pretty entertaining.
Heart and soul, I fell in love with you
Heart and soul, the way a fool would do, madly
Because you held me tight
And stole a kiss in the night

Heart and soul, I begged to be adored
Lost control, and tumbled overboard, gladly
That magic night we kissed
There in the moon mist

Oh! but your lips were thrilling, much too thrilling
Never before were mine so strangely willing



Read more: Hoagy Carmichael - Heart And Soul Lyrics | MetroLyrics
i think Huey Lewis is more appropriate for these two: "...(s)he's hot & cold..."
You haven't heard The Dubs' or Jan & Dean's versions? :mrgreen: